[Andy Hughes]

In the picture below of number 15, there seems to be quite a bit of room between the green and any water.  Would it be a better or more exciting hole if the green was pushed closer to the edge on the right?

Also, is the rock wall along the right side man-made?

http://www.californiacoastline.org/cgi-bin/image.cgi?image=200402223&mode=big&lastmode=sequential&flags=0&year=2004

[Tim Bert]

I suspect that it is already far enough to the right that more than an occasional ball finds the rocks.  Expecially if the right portion of the green is used for pin placements.  That can't be more than 6-10 feet from the cliff unless it is an optical illusion.

[Jordan Wall]

Well the 16th is a double bogey hole right on the water so 15 needs to be a little eaisier.  Hence the green being away from the rocks and water.

[Andy Hughes]

Tim, I am sure you are right that balls do find their way to the rocks. But the hole is only about 135 yards or so, isn't it?  I can't imagine the water is really in play for most players, especially if the pin is not far right.
But damn, it is beautiful.

[Joel_Stewart]

Thats an interesting picture because there is a group of players getting ready to tee off on the original Mackenzie tee which is elevated and has the most spectacular view of the hole.   That tee is seldom used except for some club tournaments.  Next time anyone is there, you should play from the original tee of at least walk up there.   The tee used most often was built I believe in the 1950's or 60's.

[Tom_Doak]

Andy:

The wall next to the tee and to the right side of the green were both built a few years ago.  If they hadn't been, you would have gotten your wish -- the ocean would have been right at the edge of the 15th green for a while.  And by now, part of the green might well be down in the surf!

Which is probably why Dr. MacKenzie left a little room between the green and the coastline.

[Andy Hughes]

Which is probably why Dr. MacKenzie left a little room between the green and the coastline.

Well, guess that's a decent reason--tough to hit a green floating out to sea.  
For the normal golfer, is there actually much fear or thought of hitting it in the water?

[Brent Hutto]

I'm a "normal" golfer at best and the day I played it the pin was toward the left. I had no fear whatsoever of going in the water. Not that it was a terribly easy shot because of the breeze and the bunkering and the apparent size of the target segment of the green. But the water didn't really enter into even a 21-handicapper's mind on that hole.

[Jordan Wall]

Im just wondering if you guys would rate this as one of the, say, five top par threes in the world?

[Brent Hutto]

I don't do rankings but it's a fine Par 3 that I have no complaints with. It's not my favorite Par 3 at Cypress Point but it's in pretty impressive company on that course and completely holds its own. Of course, difficulty or "shot values" is not as important a criteria for me as it is for most people.

[Michael Robin]

Top 5 in terms of beauty. It literally takes your breath away as you walk
across 17 Mile Drive, follow the dirt path to the tee, and watch as the rocks, then bunkers, then the green reveals itself to you. Kinda like seeing The Mona Lisa for the first time. There is such a great anticipation
as you work your way thru the other gems until you finally reach this first of the 3 ocean masterpieces.

[Andy Hughes]

I had no fear whatsoever of going in the water.

Brent, do you think it would have been a better or more interesting hole if the green had been shifted some number of feet right?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy Hughes,

I'd imagine that the visibility of the sea wall is greatly reduced at ground and tee levels, especially from the upper tee.

The golfers eye is what counts.

[Andy Hughes]

Hi Pat.  I am sure you are right about the seawall, hadn't even considered how that would look from the tee. Playability-wise, do you think it matters much whether the fear of the water enters the players mind?

[Mike Benham]

Andy Hughes,

I'd imagine that the visibility of sea wall is greatly reduced at ground and tee levels, especially from the upper tee.

The golfers eye is what counts.

[Brent Hutto]

I had no fear whatsoever of going in the water.

Brent, do you think it would have been a better or more interesting hole if the green had been shifted some number of feet right?

Andy,

Not coming right before the sixteenth hole. Taken in isolation, a hole exactly like the fifteenth at Cypress Point with the ocean as an intimidating penalty for a poorly struck shot would perhaps be a better hole than the fifteenth as it actually exists. But given where it is in the sequence of holes, having that little cove of ocean as scenic but not hazardous feature is genius.

Imagine you're playing a stroke-play round. To me the fourteenth is a brute and the sixteenth is a big number waiting to happen if you're trying for birdie. Seventeen and eighteen are no pushovers either. Fifteen is the ideal spot for an opportunity at a relatively easy par and potential birdie.

The day I played at CPC I had a very good round going early on (by my standards) but threw away a couple strokes at twelve, a couple more at thirteen and then completely butchered fourteen. Taking that little walk across the road and arriving at the fifteenth hole was enough to put me right back in the frame of mind I'd enjoyed at the beginning of the round. It would have not been a good place to be faced with some sort of scary shot challenging ocean the entire way to the green. So I'm probably biased in favor of the current configuration of the hole.

[Andy Hughes]

Mike, thanks for the picture.  Such a glorious setting, its almost an 'oh, there is a golf hole over there' moment.

It would appear that those who have played there think the green is right where it should be. And it certainly looks quite nice in the pictures. So what say we leave it where it is for now?

[Marty Bonnar]

Mike's pic shows more what the hole looks like from the tee. This view is from the front of the little promontory which the tee is on. Simply breath-taking...



The tees farther up the hill are also where the ladies play from. There's much less of a water carry from up there. Poor Nancy was sent away with a driver in her hand to discover it was the wrong (for her) Club.

Whatever you think of the Hole, it still made my sphincter pucker. As with all heroic carry holes, it's a bit of hit and hope. Choose the right club and swing easy! I made the short area of the right hand bunker, had a tricky bunker shot and two-putted.

As I recall, the green couldn't really be moved any farther 'right'. The Ocean's pretty close over there...

FBD.

[Brent Hutto]

Here's pictures from the day I played the hole. Like Martin I took one from the edge of the promitory and I also have one that shows Pete Pittock teeing off to show the less-intimidating view from the tees we played.

[Jim Nugent]

Martin, the hole looks more spectacular from where you took the photo.  Any reason the tee is not placed there?  

[Bob_Huntley]

What is wrong with you people? You are talking about the most perfect, most beautiful par three in existence and suggesting it would be improved by taking it right of its present locale. Are you crazy? Would you  dare to suggest, that the Mona Lisa would look somewhat improved with retrousse nose? (Sorry, couldn't get the accent in there).


I think this thread be deleted and remembering one very severe judge in a case in England,  who came up with this gem. " I shall be lenient with you this time, so my sentence is no more than thirty lashes and bread and water for thirty days."


Bob

[RT]

Praytell, what is that device on the tee in Pete's pic?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hi Pat.  I am sure you are right about the seawall, hadn't even considered how that would look from the tee. Playability-wise, do you think it matters much whether the fear of the water enters the players mind?

Sure.

It also depends upon the direction and velocity of the wind.

When you combine a small and intimidating looking target with an obvious water hazard and throw in some wind, only an obtuse golfer like TEPaul wouldn't recognize those factors.

Mike Benham,

Thanks for the pictures, they reveal that looking at one photo doesn't necessarily tell the whole story, or an accurate story.

Bob Huntley,

That's called architecture from above, probably one of the principal reasons that classic courses that host tournaments have been altered over the years, to please the camera's eye, to alter the golf course for the benefit of the viewer rather then the benefit of the player.[/color]

[Andy Hughes]

I think this thread be deleted and remembering one very severe judge in a case in England,  who came up with this gem. " I shall be lenient with you this time, so my sentence is no more than thirty lashes and bread and water for thirty days."

Mr Huntley, I feel suitably chastised
 

But actually, I was not suggesting the green actually be moved, but wondering what the effect would be if it were.
Clearly, the consensus of those who have played it is no, hands off!

[Jim Nugent]

I've never seen the course or the hole.  So I'm only going on the photos.  Clearly there is a tee where the fellows are hitting from -- the one with the cart-path view.  Is there also a tee from further out on the promontory, where several other pictures were taken from?  If not, why?  

BTW, George Pepper with either Golf Digest or Golf Magazine, chose this par 3 as one of the top four in the world.  

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