[Patrick_Mucci]

is one of the most fascinating par 3's I've encountered.

From the current lower tees it remains a challenge, especially when the wind blows, which is frequently.  Yet, it's fun and certainly not unfair under any conditions.

But, from the abandoned upper tee, it would have to be classified as one of the great par 3's in golf in terms of vistas and challenge.

Part of me feels it's much too difficult from the upper tee when the wind is up, be it breeze or bluster.

To a degree it reminds me of a longer version of # 7 at Pebble Beach.

How many have viewed the hole from the upper tee ?

How many have played it ?

What are your thoughts ?

TEPaul, you're automatically disqualified from answering  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat I looked at it and feel somewhat the same as you. I think it may be a bit long from up there for the green size. I tended to think of the hole as into the wind or having a cross wind. Either way made it a strong hole from 150 to 160 and a bear from 180.

[A_Clay_Man]

Surely, difficulty wasn't the sole justification for the change to using only the lower tee?

Was it the ambiguos nature of a downhill Redan?

[Mike_Sweeney]

P,

I have heard one or two people question the greatness of 17 because it is "one dimesional". Basically you have to hit the uphill small green with a solid aerial shot. However, I think it fits in perfectly as a set of par 3's at Sand Hills:

3rd hole, 215 yards down hill running shot

6th hole, 200 yards aerial preferred shot

13th hole, 220 yards, uphill very difficult

17th hole, 150 yards, precise slighly uphill shot

I think it is a great 2 or 12 type of hole, and with the monster 18 coming up, why not let the golfer hit a lofted club? I actually parred it each round in June, but that does not mean that I was not sweating on the tee.

[John Foley]

One of the best things about 17 is where it falls in the routing. Before the great 18 and after the great 16. Between those two holes most holes would suffer, yet 17 stands out.

The distance is perfect. I think abandoning the upper tee was a wise idea. That distance in the wind to that green is very tough.

My only question is could you improve the hole w/ some more cleared out area short of the green to have a few more recovery options?

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul, you're automatically disqualified from answering."

Patrick:

The hell I am. And don't you dare lie on here! That upper tee was either only mentioned to you or was only pointed out to you from the lower tee. You never went all the way up there to look at that old upper tee area, did you? Going up there is a bit dicey in the snake department. If you're gonna tell me you went all the way up there to look at that tee location then who did you go up there with because I'm gonna ask them if you went up there? Don't you dare try to lie about this or Santa won't visit you this year. You didn't really walk all the way up there to that old tee location, did you, did you, did you??

No, I didn't think you did, you big blowhard!! You're just trying to slip a total fabrication past these GOLFCLUBATLASERS but I caught you. I'm watching you like a hawk!

[Jason Hines]

Does anyone have a photo from the abandon upper tee?  I have my hands on one, but do not have permission to show it.

Mike listed #6 as a preferred aerial shot; I have a small memory of that hole.  There was room to run the shot up wasn't there?  It was a blind shot if I remember.

[RJ_Daley]

I have one form 1996 the year after opening but before the season started from the high tee on 17.  But it is before I had digital and is in some box somewhere.  I'll look and see what I can do...

[A_Clay_Man]

My only question is could you improve the hole w/ some more cleared out area short of the green to have a few more recovery options?

No!

At that point in the round, asking the golfer to be accurate is not unreasonable. Bailing out is not an option and would not make the hole better. Besides, the thrill of recovery would be reduced.

16 has plenty of room for bailing or to come up short.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Sweeney,

Most par 3's are one dimensional, or aerial in nature.

TEPaul,

Not only did I walk up to the upper, abandoned 17th tee,
I played the hole from there.

And yes, snakes were on my mind on the ascent and descent.

You must have forgotten about the cross examination of the police officer in the DWI case  

[Rick Shefchik]

Dan Kelly and I played from the upper tee before it was abandoned. I have a very vidid recollection of how difficult the hole was from that tee, as the wind blew constantly at about 25 mph when we were there. Hitting the green from that tee, in those conditions, seemed beyond my skill level, and yet it never occurred to me that they might someday abandon the tee. There wasn't another shot on the course that got your attention more completely than the shot from that back tee. It's a great, great hole from any tee -- including the way-back.

[Jimmy Muratt]

In September we hiked up to the back tee and played the hole from there.  On a course filled with memorable shots, that one stands near the top.  The view may be the best on the course, as the mighty 18th is set in the backdrop.  

The hole has a completely different feel from back there.  It really is an intimidating shot, but one that I couldn't wait to hit.  There just isn't much margin for error, especially if the wind is up.  

The 17th is the type of hole that you come to appreciate more and more as you see it in different winds.  I have found that the easiest place to get up and down from is the front bunker.  Right is dead, long is no good, and left is no picnic either.  Short can be tricky but I'll take my chances from there, as the green is more receptive coming at it from that angle.  

I do wish the back tee continued to be maintained.  It really dramatically changes the feel of the hole and the finish of the round.  

[Jim Nugent]

Why did they abandon the back tee?  Any chance of resurrecting it?

[Neil Regan]

My pictures seem to have disappeared from the web.

Here are a few of the 17th from the high tee.
As good as it is from below, from above it joins a very small royalty.

[Sean_A]

I don't know which pictures are current, but I much prefer the first photo without the huge bunker, footpaths and wind vane in the background (or are they hidden because of the angle?).  The hole flows much better into the landscape on the first photo.  There is too much going on in the other photos.  Very distracting to the eye.  Perhaps this is the intention.  

Everytime I see photos of this course I need a tissue to wipe the drool down my chin.

Ciao

Sean

[T_MacWood]

I don't believe the upper tee existed when I played the hole...I don't recall seeing the green from that angle.

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
Visually it is a very pretty golf hole but to call it one of the most fascinating you've ever played is a bit over the top.  It shows the power of pretty bunkers (not that I don't like them myself).    
Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Fine,

I can differentiate between nice looking bunkers and intriquing play.

It is one of the most fascinating holes I've encountered.

The idea that the upper back tee was abandoned, and yet, so many who visit and play the golf course go back up there to view and play it, is fascinating in and of itself.

The hole possesses a lure, it creates the desire to play it from another spot.

It might even be one of those sites, one of those greens that functions well from 360 degrees.

One can't discount the creative thinking of C&C when they positioned the tee in that spot and created a challenging hole with great vistas.

I favor maintaining that tee as a double diamond tee.
And, I think every golfer who is fortunate enough to visit Sand Hills should walk up (cautiously and armed with one or two clubs) and examine that tee and the hole from that vantage point.

Neil Regan,

Thanks for the great pictures.
Isn't the last one more reflective of the view from the upper tee ?

It's a do or die type of hole with NO wind.
With wind, it's one of the most challenging shots in all golf.

The green is a very small target and the angle is more difficult from the upper tee.

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
I can think of lots of holes that would be "fascinating" from other teeing locations.  Some of the best holes at Bandon Dunes for example are from tees "not shown on the card".  However, from the "official" tees, #17 at Sand Hills is good but it's the pretty blowout bunkers that make the golf hole special.  Sorry Pat, but if I photoshoped in some bland looking bunkers in the same locations (and for good measure put a Burger King in the background), you might not be as "fascinated".
Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Fine,

You're wrong.  My fascination with the hole has nothing to do with it being photogenic.

It's not the blow-out bunkers that fascinate me, it's the configuration of the green and the angle of attack from the upper tee, combined with the wind.

Look at Neil's last photo and then study how effectively small the green plays from that angle.

Shots hit on the right front will likely roll back off the green, down into the fronting area.  Back left is almost impossible to hit.

Short is disastrous, right, more so, long, if you can find your ball might not be so bad.

It's one of the most challenging par 3 holes I've ever encountered from the upper tee and a nice par 3 from the lower tee.

In the half a dozen or more times I played it from the lower tee I don't think I made one bogey.  If I had played it from the upper tee, I don't think I would have made one par, and normally, going from 140 to 180, from a lower tee to an upper tee, where you pick up 10 to 20 yards, shouldn't have that dramatic of an impact, but, it does, and that's one of the things that fascinates me about # 17.

Have you been to Sand Hills and walked up to the upper tee ?
Have you played the hole from the upper tee ?

# 7 at Pebble Beach is a pushover compared to # 17 from the upper tee.

While the wind may blow, the lower tee can be shielded from its effect.  Not so with the upper tee where the golfer is even more intimidated by the length and angle he's confronted with as he views the green, and the wind as it destabilizes him over the ball.

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
I've played the hole seven different times from all tees.  Clearly the angle of the upper tee is more difficult.  However, that is the case on many good golf holes.  When you change the angle of attack, the complexion and difficultly of the hole changes.  Isn't that the idea behind angles  

I still love the golf hole.  It's pretty  
Mark

[TEPaul]

"Mike listed #6 as a preferred aerial shot; I have a small memory of that hole.  There was room to run the shot up wasn't there?  It was a blind shot if I remember."

Jason:

Absolutely there's room to run the ball up onto #6. Obviously one can hit an aerial shot onto that green but you sure can run it up too. I ran it up to the back of that green a couple of times by taking about 3 clubs less than I'd need to fly the ball to the middle and I hit a couple of sort of low draws around the huge mound that blinds the whole left side of the green and ran the ball to the back pin. That's what's so neat about that par 3 and #3. There're a lot of different types of shots you can hit on those holes with similar results.

[Tom Huckaby]

is one of the most fascinating par 3's I've encountered.

Agreed.

From the current lower tees it remains a challenge, especially when the wind blows, which is frequently.  Yet, it's fun and certainly not unfair under any conditions.

Agreed.

But, from the abandoned upper tee, it would have to be classified as one of the great par 3's in golf in terms of vistas and challenge.

Sputter - spit - coffee all over the screen.

WHAT?

VISTAS?

Patrick, you obviously have some 'splainin' to do.  Haven't we gone on for six pages on another thread where you're telling me that vistas are outside the frame and don't count?

BTW, I have ventured to the upper tee.  It is neat.  Actually hit a shot from up there as well.  It is very tough, and in any kind of wind, the green is too small for the length of shot.  But it adds to the greatness that the tee is still there in some form... I just don't find that it lacks greatness from the lower tee.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

But, from the abandoned upper tee, it would have to be classified as one of the great par 3's in golf in terms of vistas and challenge.

Sputter - spit - coffee all over the screen.

WHAT?

VISTAS?

Patrick, you obviously have some 'splainin' to do.  Haven't we gone on for six pages on another thread where you're telling me that vistas are outside the frame and don't count?

You're confused.

How can vistas of the green and it surrounds, the areas of play be outside of the frame ?

Answer, they can't, but, vistas removed from the golf course are outside the frame.[/color]

BTW, I have ventured to the upper tee.  It is neat.  Actually hit a shot from up there as well.  It is very tough, and in any kind of wind, the green is too small for the length of shot.  But it adds to the greatness that the tee is still there in some form... I just don't find that it lacks greatness from the lower tee.

I think it's a terrific hole from the lower tee, but, the challlenge increases exponentially from the upper tee, which was once in use.[/color]

[Tom Huckaby]

 

OK, that's better.  Shit for a moment there I thought you had gained sanity and actually noticed the view up 18 and side to side.  Glad to know your TARGET OBSESSION is intact.

BTW, we are in complete agreement about this golf hole.  Now how the hell did that happen?

TH

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