[Kyle Harris]

Got this idea from the sub-6500 yard thread.

Back tees are not necessarily the best tee boxes to play from, even for the best of players.

What are some examples of courses where a more forward tee box plays better than a back tee box?

I know this has a lot to do with ability, but are there any grevious examples where back tees have taken so much away from the hole that it stinks?

The 10th at Bethpage Black seems to qualify for this, and maybe the 5th with the new back tee (I've only played those tees once).

[Tim Gavrich]

I can't think of any I've played off the top of my head, but when I've watched the Battle at the Bridges, It seems to me that there are many tees that are kind of hidden, in a way.  By this, I mean that it seems like there's so much vegetation around the tee areas that the possibilities for unusual tee area placements are nearly unimited.  I quite like the idea of a course where you walk to the next tee area and discover interesting new boxes from different angles, which might be shorter than the regular tips.

I'd imagine that the Ocean Course has this sort of "explorer" feel to it.  The Bandon Dunes courses as well, I'd think.

I have not played any of those courses, but that's the way they look to me, in pictures/on TV.

[Andy Troeger]

I'm not sure how accurate this is since I didn't play the way back tee...but #16 at Paa-Ko Ridge has a tee way up on a hill that plays about 190 vs another tee from a lower elevation that's I think about 240 with water short/left and not much room long. I'd play the upper tee every time, its a nervewracking shot because the wind plays havoc with you up there with club selection, plus its a small enough target that the longer tee just seems brutal. Not to mention, the view from the top is worth it regardless!

[David Ober]

The PGA of Southern California "Legends" course from the Green tees stretches to almost 7500 yards. It's a better course from about 7200 to 7300 yards if you ask me. Some of the back tees are just kind of ... silly.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Kyle-

 I think, in addition to those aforementioned at The Black, we might be able to apply the same to the 9th hole.  

  When we looked at the tee location in August  , it's a hell of a drive just to get it to the fairway, and I don't think takes into account the hole's architecture very well-  

  I'm not sure it's the best tee to play from.  I always looked at the 9th as a shorter hole, not necessarily an easier one, before one walked to the first half of the back nine, holes 10-13, which are all ballbreakers.  

  I always viewed the optimal play on this hole as, standing on the tee box, hit a draw with driver or fairway wood around the corner, starting the ball at a specific group of trees on the right side of the fairway, curving it R-L.  Carry the severe swale in the fairway, and have a flattish lie, as it's an aerial shot that is needed for the approach.

Now, it appears that one needs a hell of a blast just to reach the swale in the fairway-which is going to be no picnic hitting an approach from.  

[wsmorrison]

Maybe the worst I've ever seen is the current 12th hole at the Old Course at the Cascades.  The course itself is a wonderful throwback with a nice variety of shot values, excellent topography and outstanding views.  The leaves were not yet fallen when Tom and I were there yesterday.  Those mountain ridges in full color need to be seen to believe.  Anyway, I digress.  Flynn's version of the hole was a stern 392 yard par 4 where the landing area was precisely chosen to take advantage of a wonderful ridge.  From the top of the ridge the green below is in view and there's a tremendous reward for reaching the landing area.  The tee was moved back 152 yards sometime before the mid 1980s so that even the longest drivers are well short of the ridge about 30 feet below the former landing area.  It is impossible to know where to hit.  The severity of the slope makes a tree or landmark feature impossible to see.  This is yardage for yardage sake and it seriously compromises a solid par 4 into a ridiculous par 5.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

They did a similar things (twice, actually) at the White Course to the present 6th hole. The green is a Willie Park green designed for a long downhill par 3 (200 yards, depending on where you think the tee was exactly). The hole was converted in 1994 to a sharp dogleg left par 4. Needless to say, a green designed to challenge a long iron approach is now having wedge shots hit into it.

This past year, the tee was further moved back and now plays as a short par 5. However, the possibility of going for the green in two (and therefore restoring some aspect of the green's design) is negated by terrain and trees. Any golf attempting to hit the green in two has a blind approach that requires a snap hook from an awkward stance. Best to lay up - and hit wedge - than risk an absolutely crazy bounce.  

[JESII]

Wayne,

That's an interesting situation, any chance you can show what you're talking about? I played the hole a few times 8 or 10 years ago and would love to see the two scenarios you describe. I know your inventory of photos is nearly unlimited.

Thanks

Sully

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Wayne,

They did a similar things (twice, actually) at the White Course to the present 6th hole. The green is a Willie Park green designed for a long downhill par 3 (200 yards, depending on where you think the tee was exactly). The hole was converted in 1994 to a sharp dogleg left par 4. Needless to say, a green designed to challenge a long iron approach is now having wedge shots hit into it.

This past year, the tee was further moved back and now plays as a short par 5. However, the possibility of going for the green in two (and therefore restoring some aspect of the green's design) is negated by terrain and trees. Any golf attempting to hit the green in two has a blind approach that requires a snap hook from an awkward stance. Best to lay up - and hit wedge - than risk an absolutely crazy bounce.  

Kyle-

  That's what I started to tell you last night--White Course #6 is a perfect example.  My opinion-If it were played from a more forward tee--one of the ones where the tee shot is more uphill, rather than from immediately adjacent to the road-it would make a hell of a "half-par" hole.  
What would you think about placing a tee where a well struck drive, with draw, can take the crest of the hill, and maybe get a "turbo boost"   down the hill, shortening the approach?  
A less well hit drive may have to contend with the hole as a par 5--is there room around the green to cut the surrounding hill to fairway height, similar to the right side of the green like #5 at Merion?  
  The previous five holes don't have that sort of challenge, and another hole like this isn't encountered until #10--a half-par hole.  

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