[Scott Witter]

Yes, that's right and you too can read about it in the new GOLF magazine.

Engh is a golf architect and as such he should be able to adapt his style on any type of site, but would someone tell me the last time he did this? and, so therefore, is Engh the wise choice to add a second 9-holes on to this raw tract designed by the skilled Eddie Hackett?

I have to wonder, who, if any, were the other architects contacted about this project and why didn't they get the commission?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

"... Engh worked in Europe for years supervising the design and construction of courses for a British builder. It gave him his foundation, but his inspiration comes from the bold nature of Irish links golf. He's a member of the Carne Golf Club, an immensely muscular links course on the Atlantic in County Mayo..."

[Tyler Kearns]

He's a member of the Carne Golf Club.

Case closed.

[Mike_Cirba]

Engh states in the article that he is trying to build a course that will very closely emulate Hackett's minimalist, wild, natural style.  

While he's known for a lot of earthmoving, it will be interesting to see if he can resist that impulse.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

He's a member of the Carne Golf Club.

Case closed.

I believe that he and GCA's Jack Marr are members of Belmullet Golf Club which is the Club in Residence at Carne Golf Links.

I have corresponded with Jim in reference to Carne, and I believe he got and took the job for all the right reasons. I have yet to play any of his courses, but I will play Carne again someday.

Eventually, I would love to see Jim do some work to the original greens, which are the weak spot of Carne probably due to lack of money when Eddie Hackett built the course. Right now, that is not in the gameplan and may never be in the gameplan as the people of Carne have a deep appreciation for what Eddie did for them.

[Tyler Kearns]

[quote author=Mike Sweeney link=board=1;threadid=20144;

I have corresponded with Jim in reference to Carne, and I believe he got and took the job for all the right reasons. I have yet to play any of his courses, but I will play Carne again someday.

Mike,

I was not trying to imply that Engh was hired through duplicitous means, simply that as a member, he was the obvious candidate for the job. What is Engh's track record in regards to working on existing golf courses? I've only seen his work at Hawktree, and by comparison with pictures of his other projects, he certainly has a charcteristic style. Will he impart this style on the Carne Golf Links or will he depart from that trademark design?

TK

[Mike_Sweeney]

Tyler,

I have not done enough "heavy lifting" so I can't comment on Jim Engh's style since I have never seen it.

I have been to Carne, and trust me there are no Caterpillar dealers out there! While I am sure that he has a bigger budget than Eddie Hackett, my guess is that it is not by much. The article states that Engh estimates the course will be done "within a few years". It does not sound like a typical Engh project.

Maybe Engh doing Carne will be similar to Bill Murray when he did Razor's Edge. The masses could not accept Murray in anything but a comedy, but I personally liked the movie.

[Matt_Ward]

Scott / Tyler / et al:

I believe the Golf Magazine article speaks to the nature of how the Engh addition will be added. The locals are integrally involved in this effort.

For those who have already tagged Engh a certain type of architect I would hasten to hold off such stereotypes until the work at Carne is open for play. Mike Sweeney has taken the wise and prudent approach here IMHO.

[Don Dinkmeyer]

I've played Carne twice, both in gale-force winds. In 2004 they had a map in the clubhouse showing an 18 hole addition. There's certainly room for it and the terrain is terrific.

Getting to Carne is another matter - endless peat bogs and seemingly far far away from anything. The tavern in town, though, had great dining.

Even as i type that, I know there's more than ONE tavern   -- my bad!

[Michael Plunkett]

Sounds like a needed road trip.   When is the work going to begin?  'love to play in the original at least once.


Those wacky guys on Ham n'Eggs go and write about Ireland often and had played there.  

They said the road signs are in a different languge and you could be a mike away and never know it. Souinds my kind of fun, too.

[John_Conley]

I'm guessing he got the job with few (or no) others considered because HE LOVES THE PLACE!

To those in the area, Jim must come across as a terrific guy that is a member and only says nice things about Carne.  Then he can flash is "Architect of the Year" award from Golf Digest and I reckon there wouldn't be a lot of reasons to look elsewhere, presuming the fee isn't a problem.

Jim was loving Carne before they hired him for a new nine.  Can't fake that.  Anyone else pitching the job would come and tell the committee how much they love Carne.  Different.

[Scott Witter]

Matt,

Clearly I have read the article, but knowing Engh's work and having played three of his "noted" courses, I had to send this thread out there and see what hit the wall from you guys.

I wouldn't go so far and say that I "tagged" Engh for his work, but you do have to admit, and even though he says his roots and interests lie in Irish/Scotish based courses, his work is quite a departure from these origins.

Honestly, I do hope Engh stays true to the original design character and soul...time will tell.

Sean, I think you may have taken too much for granted saying how Engh couldn't miss hitting a home run.  Especially when you follow this with "I have never seen any of Engh's work"  Hey, I admire the work of many architects and various projects, but nothing exists or guarantees that if I worked on one of their courses, I would hit a "home run" and have things "turn out fine".

[Matt_Ward]

Scott:

Forgive my directness -- but why the inability to really comprehend what the Golf Magazine says in spades? Engh has worked with the local folks in giving them what the land / site calls for.

Look at the courses he has created -- he has had to deal with some of the most demanding sites you can handle. I mean Santuary (Sedalia, CO) is not an easy site -- plenty of architects bailed on it and while I am not a fan of the course I do salute the tenacity in getting a full 18 holes built there. Ditto his efforts at Pradera -- which I believe is one of the very best Engh has done and demonstrates for me the increasing complexity and sophistication of the holes he now creates.

Do you really believe Engh is going to do a re-do of Black Rock, or Hawktree, or Redlands Mesa in such a unique setting?

What amazes me on GCA is how some people automatically give the benefit of the doubt only goes to preferred favorites but little is given or acknowledged for others. Engh's style is not everyone's cup of tea -- I concede that -- but the man does have considerable talent and from the ten courses of his I have personally played I look forward to someday playing what he and the town folks / members of Carne provide.

I would hope people would not "spin" the discussion until the actual course / addition has been played.

[Scott Witter]

Matt,

No need to forgive you Matt, you speak your mind as do I, that's why this site works...sort of.

I was up front with you and added that I hope he stays true to the original design character.  I say that because I do recognize and respect his talents for some of the reasons you state and I do believe he has the ability to do it.

I'm not sure what you may be implying, I think not directly anyway, but trust me, I am the last person who gives a flying crap about the so called GCA site favorites.  Like I said, I was interested to read the reactions from my post, the rest I can't control.

[George Pazin]

I read the article last night and am hopeful.

However, I will say that I can fully understand people's concerns. Mr. Engh did make one statement that he intended to "shape the land the way it begged to be shaped." That land doesn't look like it's begging to be shaped at all, and I hope he shows the restraint the article implies.

Matt, forgive my directness , but people give certain architects a break because they have earned their trust through finished products, not simply nice statements that people want to hear.

[Matt_Ward]

Scott:

Fair enough -- at least you realize what I said previously. I salute you in allowing the finished product at Carne to speak for itself and not fall victim to the "spin game" played so well by a few of the clowns here on GCA who know Engh "so well" from having played either just one or two of his courses to date.

George:

If you don't believe there are "favorites" here on GCA then you are clearly in la-la land my good man. Engh's record is quite impressive to date and the "trust" you speak about has been earned in my book because I have personally played no less than 10 of his designs. Far more than many here on GCA who simply opine from the spin created on photographs or third hand characterizations.

Jim Engh is a very talented fellow and it angers me when certain people that I won't identify so not to embarrass them can post a total descriptive nature on what Engh's capability as an architect is simply from the playing of one course within his portfolio.

Like I said -- how bout we avoid the "spinning" until the final product is unveiled. Isn't that the appropriate thing to do? Being the fair person I assume you are I doubt you would disagree with that. But then again -- you never know.

[George Pazin]

Matt, there are absolutely favorites on here. I know that, and I'd guess everyone would admit it.

My point is simply that the reason there are favorites is because these fellows produce the desired product time and time again, not because of what they say, either on here or to the press. To quote the old saying, "They earn it".

I don't know if you were around this far back, but someone once posted photos of a course in Texas C&C were building - maybe for UT? maybe Austin Country Club? - and the response was less than overwhelming, to be kind. People even criticised the early photos on The Rawls course, when it appeared there was some mounding. There would certainly have been a more vociferous response if Rees had been the architect in either of these instances, but there certainly is criticism of the "favorites".

I think Mr. Engh will produce a product almost everyone will love, and I hope I get to sample it someday.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

The word "favorite" should be broadened to include bias because heaven help those who are not on the "short list."

What's funny is that the same people who constantly rave about "favorites" have little comprehensive field experience with a good number of other architects. Engh happens to be one of them. Too many times you get cherry-picking of certain courses and only these courses are then saluted as masterpieces in design.

I have no idea how Carne will turnout but if the designer involved was a GCA "favorite" the spin machine would be up and running on what a fantastic layout it will be.

George -- when people criticize early photos it simply shows me the stupidty of the people involved. How does one know how a given hole / course will be until you play it? Too often the spin cycle for courses is like the same thing you see with movies. Plenty of positioning and hype but far often much less when the actual product is sample personally.

I didn't say a word about The Rawls Course until I played it. Frankly, Tom Doak and company did a fine job there and the best thing about it is the relative cost to play golf there.

Engh is clearly not in the mode of Doak. Frankly, some of the old time greats were far different than others of the same period. But that doesn't mean Engh is a man without considerable talent for golf design.

Fair minded people like yourself I know can wait until they personally play it befor opining that the course in question is one thing or the other.  

[wsmorrison]

"Maybe Engh doing Carne will be similar to Bill Murray when he did Razor's Edge. The masses could not accept Murray in anything but a comedy, but I personally liked the movie."

Mike,

I liked Murray's 1984 version of the "Razor's Edge" very much and found it superior to Tyrone Power's efforts in the 1946 version.  I met Bill Murray in Cooperstown, NY this summer and mentioned that my oldest son's favorite Bill Murray movies were Razor's Edge and "Life Aquatic."  He seemed taken aback but pleased.  Have you seen Life Aquatic?  It is excellent, especially if you like that sort of humor.  Of course I mentioned my son's fondness for Caddie Shack and Ghostbusters as well  

[Jack_Marr]

First of all, Life Equatic is brilliant

Anyway, I doubt those out in Belmullet know a huge amount about golf architects. Jim Engh joined Carne because he loved the place. He also has a CV that suggests he's a good architect. I think a suitable number of people enjoy playing his courses; otherwise, he wouldn't be hired to build them.

Jim Engh is genuinely enthusiastic about the golf course. This is very important. I doubt they have very much if anything really to pay him. Also, if he likes the original and is striving to produce links in the same style, then he can't go far wrong.

It's also worth noting that Eddie Hackett had to "move heaven and earth" to produce 4 of the holes in Carne. The rest were just there already.

[George Pazin]

Jack -

Thanks for the input. Is it obvious which holes Mr. Hackett moved heaven and earth?

As for Bill Murray, he was also hilarious in a different way in Rushmore, a very underrated film.

[Jack_Marr]

Hi George

It probably is, but not to me. If I was to guess, I'd say the 15th is one of them. I'd say the architects on this board would be able to spot them. Maybe I would too if I had a proper look.

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