[Andy Troeger]

Being a native Hoosier and having played a lot of golf in Indiana, I'm just curious on what people out there think about golf here. I was tempted to ask what the best courses are, but that limits the playing field so instead I'll ask...what are the most underrated or overrated courses in Indiana? If you don't like the "rating" terminology, what are some hidden gems, and/or well known courses that weren't worth a return visit.

[Brad Klein]

Underrated: Broadmoor, Brickyard Crossing, Rock Hollow, Trophy Club

Excellent: Crooked Stick, Wolf Run

Interesting and worthwhile if occasionally flawed: Victoria National, French Lick Springs-Hill Course

Overrated: Meridian Hills, Otter Creek

[mark chalfant]

Harrison Hills in Attica- some of William Langfords finest holes
on excellent land.

Culver Academy-   strong  9 hole course that traverses over some deep gullies

The  Fort

try to see French  Lick  !

[Chris_Blakely]

Not Rated: Maxwelton GC - quirky and fun Langfor/Moreau course in Syracuse; Tippecanoe GC - 9 holes by Joseph Roseman that are absolutely wild and a lot of fun to play, 9 more holes by Pete Dye, early in career and part of sub-division.  Greens are interesting, layout pedestrian.

Both are work a loot for fans of Golden Age golf courses.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

You raise a good point / re: Hoosier golf. For a state with predominatly flat land you have some exceptional designs in the state. I am a big fan of the more noted public courses that lie near Indy -- The Trophy Club in Carmel, Purgatory in Noblesville (although I think the 13th is a bit of overkill), etc, etc. I also liked Bear Slide in Cicero although I may be more of an exception to that one.

One of the most overrated layouts for me is Eagle Creek -- also outside of Indy. What a crock for such a "touted" layout. Agree with the others on Otter Creek -- just a big expansive RTJ layout with little that is memorable. Have to add Sycamoe Hills in Fort Wayne -- the layout is really "old" Nicklaus and you can see the tremendous gains Jack has made since then.

I aso enjoyed Hulman Links in Terre Haute but I have not been back in quite some time. Be curious if they ever straightened out the unique par-5 on the return side -- I believe it's the 11th?

I also liked Santa Claus in Christmas Lake -- the facility could use a few more bucks to invest but the '68 design by Ed Ault still holds up well.

Victoria National is also well done although I can see the comments of a few people who have a slightly different take than me.

There are other courses to mention -- suffice to say -- Indiana is a testament to the creative qualities of the folks who have designed there. Anyone designing layouts in Florida should hop a ride / bus to the Hoosier State and see how quality golf can work on even the deadest of flat sites.

[Ken Fry]

Overrated: Meridian Hills, Otter Creek

Brad,

I'm just curious your thoughts on Meridian Hills?  It seems not many folks beyond Indy know much about it.

Ken

[Andy Troeger]

I'll go ahead and add my own thoughts:

First regarding the courses already mentioned: I have to agree with Otter Creek being overrated, although not as much as the ones I list below, simply because I usually have a pretty good knack for remembering courses, and I can't remember that one, even though I enjoyed it at the time.

I have a love/hate relationship with the Culver course. I see the good aspects of the course and think it has a nice variety of holes, but there are a couple (#5 and 6) that seem over the top and ridiculous and I find playing there incredibly frustrating...maybe that's a good thing.

I've not played Victoria, Wolf Run, or Sycamore, but Crooked Stick is the best of the courses in Indiana that I have played. I'm hoping to add the Fort and Victoria yet this fall so that might change. Rock Hollow is also wonderful.

I was not a huge fan of Bear Slide, although I thought the back nine was much more interesting than the front and I really thought #18 was a great finishing hole. Some interesting quirks there.

French Lick is good as well, although I wouldn't consider it one of the best in the state personally.


And for my own additions:
Underrated: South Bend CC. Absolutely wonderful old course with a great variety of holes. Back nine is one of the best I've played.  Also Stonehenge in Warsaw (Ron Garl), Sultan's Run in Jasper (Tim Liddy), good golf and the prettiest course I've played in Indiana, and Beechwood in LaPorte (William Diddel), one of the most challenging munis around, although I wish they'd cut down some of the stupid pine trees right off of the fairways.

Overrated: Legends of Indiana, Hanging Tree, Juday Creek, Briar Ridge

[Andy Doyle]

I've only played 2 courses in Indiana, Brickyard Crossing and Purgatory - I really enjoyed both of them.

Do you think Brickyard is thought to be gimmicky because of the holes in the infield?

AD

[Andy Troeger]

Andy,
  I've not played either the Brickyard or Purgatory, but I've never heard anyone say that the Brickyard was gimmicky. My understanding is that those holes, while maybe not the best on the course, still make for a unique experience.

Ken,
  I don't think Meridian Hills gets a lot of fanfare outside of Indy...I didn't get the impression they want it either. I played it twice, both in junior tournaments. Its a solid golf course and I would think has to rate pretty well among the area private clubs.

[Wayne Freeman]

I was fortunate to play Wolf Run and Victoria National last month and thought both were really excellent. Wolf Run is a very difficult course with a lot of trouble all over the place. I met Steve Smyers there and was very impressed with him.  They are doing a bunch of work to the course and it will make it that much better.  Victoria National is to me a pretty special place.  Cut out of an old mining area, it has incredible beauty and much imagination.  There are neat little fingers of waterways weaving in and out - and many terrific holes. The head pro was great to play with and gave us a running commentary the entire round. They couldn't get Fazio at first to even look at the property because it was in Indiana, but when he finally did he said that there were "100 great golf holes"  out there. Quite a compliment.  Don't miss it if you have the chance to play.  

[ForkaB]

I They couldn't get Fazio at first to even look at the property because it was in Indiana, but when he finally did he said that there were "100 great golf holes"  out there.

Now we know where Coore and Crenshaw stole that line of theirs for Sand Hills..........

Go Faz!

Ps--Wayne, were there any spottings of JakaBs while you were there?

[Chris_Clouser]

I agree with Brad somewhat.

I always thought Brickyard was overrated.  It just seemed to artificial in appearance for my taste.  I haven't been out there in a few years, so maybe it has changed.

Matt, what about Eagle Creek did you not like?  I thought that was far superior to Dye's work at Brickyard.  At least until they mucked up the routing by mixing and matching the old and new 18 holes.  

The top privates like Crooked Stick, Wolf Run and Victoria are very very good.  But the next level of top courses are predominantly public.  I've heard some good things about Cobblestone in the Fort Wayne area.  Indy has several good high end public courses like Purgatory, Trophy Club, Prairie View, Bear Slide and the Fort.  The Langford courses mentioned earlier are very good from all accounts.

Two courses in my region that I'm not all that hip on are Plum Creek (Liddy/Dye) and Sagamore (Nicklaus).  They both have some really nice holes but something just doesn't work for me.  Plum Creek is what most people think of when they think Indiana golf, ultra-flat!  The fourth (?) is a good hole with the creek bisecting the fairway in a diagonal manner and there are a couple of good holes on the back side, but outside of that I just don't like the course.  Tim Liddy if you are reading this, sorry.    Sagamore is a much more rolling layout on some old farm land and really could have been a much better course if not for the housing issues.  There are some really good holes though.  The first and second are top notch holes.  The 8th is one of the best par threes in the state I think.  The 12th is a unique hole.  14 is somewhat different as well for a risk/reward par five.  Then I think it is the 15th (?) that is a nice par four.  But so many of the other holes are very stereotypical of modern golf.  The par threes around ponds (3 of them).  Two par fours that basically are identical and some other lost opportunities.  If anyone at Sagamore reads this, please e-mail me and tell me why the 11th wasn't stretched into a great short par four with the way that terrain rolls down to the greensite instead of having a 100 yard walk to the next tee.  Something that we lack so much are good short to mid par fours these days.  And when a designer has a shot of creating one and not doing so it bothers me.    

Rock Hollow has gotten better and Otter Creek is overrated.  For years all people knew about Indiana golf were Crooked Stick and these two courses because they showed up in the Golf Digest ratings.  Though not on par with the NYC or Philly metro areas, Indiana is creating a nice notch for itself in the golf world.  

Three golf courses in my hometown (Noblesville) that should get more notice are Fox Prairie and the two courses at Pebble Brook.  Fox Prairie has a couple of top of the line holes (1 and 15) IMHO and Pebble Brook, if given a tree trimming on the South course, has a really nice routing with some quality holes as well.  

[Andy Troeger]

Cobblestone is one I forgot that I think is quite good. Probably the best I've played of the public courses in that area, including Fort Wayne. I prefer it to Noble Hawk, located just down the street.

Interesting comments about Sagamore, other than its lofty rating by Golf Digest of 5th in state I've not heard much about it.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

Is Eagle Creek ever really in above average shape? It reminds me of the Indy version of pre-Bethpage Black (conditioning not layout wise).

The holes are good but from all the hype the layout gets from hosting previous US Pub Links events you would think it's right at the top of the taxpayer-owned layouts.

Please don't think that I don't like the course -- I just see the layout as being overrated given the other gems that exist in the Hoosier State.

Chris -- Indiana is a perfect place for aspiring architects to see how a quality layout can be created when the land site is basically flat. You are right about the golf in and around Noblesville -- a person visiting the northeast suburbs can find a range of quality golf offerings there.

[Bob Barriger]

Underrated-Broadmoor, if they remove a 1000 or so trees. They have done a good job so far of recapturing lost green space and redoing bunkers in their Ross renovation, but you gotta remove some trees.
Rock Hollow- a gem in Peru, IN.
Matt W- the original 18 at Eagle Creek was very good, but they mixed in some new holes and created? a second 18 for monetary reasons after they privatized and the original 18 got bastardized for that reason.
Chris the short par at Sagamore isn't that bad, #12, but they probably did the routing that way from  #13-#18 to keep all the hackers from sending their tee balls into the homes bordering the left side of #13, if they redid the routing from #18 back thru #13 they would have homes on the right side of the  3 finishing holes, plus they wouldn't have that great par 3 cape hole of 234 yds forced carry over water #17. The back side of the original 18 at Fox Prairie is pretty good, but the front is rather pedestrian. And Chris, you are really stretching if you put Pebble Brook, either the north or south course in this discussion. They wouldn't make the top 50 in Indiana.
Victoria National is quite good but sometimes I leave the place wondering that there has to be more. Kinda like eating Chinese food and being hungry just a litte bit later.
Big Wolf Run fan, since I am a member and have had the opportunity to play the course with Steve Smyers.  There is something to be said to play the course with the designer and hearing his thoughts about how he designed the course and why.
Brad, played Isleworth with Smyers last week. #2 is too hard from the tees you played for anybody above a 4 hdcp.

[Andy Troeger]

Something I've noticed, here and elsewhere...to me Rock Hollow and Sultan's Run are fairly comparable in quality and style (both Tim Liddy, so not that surprising). Rock Hollow gets quite a bit of credit, here and otherwise, but you hear next to nothing about Sultan's Run. Why is that? I'd play either one any day.

And if Victoria National, Wolf Run, and Crooked Stick are the general consensus for best three courses in some order or another(overall, obviously not everyone agrees even to that), what's fourth?

Any other thoughts on South Bend CC? I'm guessing very few on here have played it.

[Tim Liddy]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned Bridgewater, a very low profile golf course on a great site recently completed by Mr. Dye and my own self. I think one of the best we have done.

[Dale_McCallon]

Andy,

I'll second your appreciation for Sultan's Run.  Played there last year and definitely want to get back when I'm in that area again.  I remember 9 being a great driving hole and a short par 4 on the front (6 or 7) that really was a fun hole that could be played several different ways.  Probably doesn't get much pub on this site due to location.  I don't think I would plan a trip to play here, but since I have family in the area I will certainly be going back.

[Bob Barriger]

Tim, I like Bridgewater, excuse me for not mentioning it. #3, #9, #14 and #15 being my favorite holes. A fine golf course given the lack of topography you had to work with. Sagamore and Bridgewater definately the 2 top new courses in the State. Its hard to be either underrated or overrated if not that many people on GCA have played it.

[Andy Troeger]

Dale...glad to see some love for Sultan's Run  

I'll agree that its probably not a "build a trip around it" course, but definitely worth playing if in the area (not too far from Victoria National or French Lick). I played it each time I was at an event at French Lick and liked it better than the Hill Course.

Wish I could comment on Bridgewater, but I haven't been there. Friend played and brought back the scorecard/pictures, looks fantastic!

[Chris_Clouser]

Tim,

Sorry I didn't mention Bridgewater.  I haven't seen it so it's hard to comment on it.  

Matt,

The conditioning at Eagle Creek has become suspect the last few years, but in the fall might be the best time to hit the course.  I have played it in really good conditions though.  But I see what you're getting at.  

Bob,

I think the routing of the South at Pebble Brook is pretty good, I agree it probably isn't a top 25 course but a solid public course for the money.  I just was putting that in the equation as a possible course that deserves a little recognition if one were looking in the area and didn't want plunk down over $50 to play a round.  After thinking about it perhaps the North isn't that high and mighty.  They don't allow walking on it for some reason, so I've only played it once.  And yes, outside of the first hole at Fox Prairie the old front nine was rather normal, but there are some good holes on the back.  
About Sagamore though, I know why they routed the course that way.  I walked the course several times during construction and talked to people on the crew several times.  Not many holes like it in the area.  Personally I like the 12th, I just said it was unique.  I just don't understand why they didn't stretch the 11th just a bit and make a go/no-go par four from the tee with the terrain that existed there.  I guess to have a balanced 36/36 par on both sides of the card was the reason.  I haven't seen the rankings but to have that course as top 5 in the state says a lot more for the marketing of the course than the content in my opinion.  Or perhaps the golf in Indiana just isn't as good as I thought.

One other course I forgot completely about was Westchase in Brownsburg.  Played it earlier this year.  Quite a nice layout and comparable to some of the others that have been mentioned.  

[Matt_Ward]

Bob B:

Thanks for the clarification on Eagle Creek.

Chris:

Take Eagle Creek and tell me do you see the course really being among the state's top 10 public courses now. Eagle Creek is part of the past -- there are other more noted and deserving public layouts that have opened in the last 15 years or so.

Gents:

Let me ask the denizens of the Hoosier state this -- rate what section of the state has the better overall golf -- public and private -- the North -- Central (includes Indy area and suburbs) or the South? I'm guessing most will say the Central w the Indy area being predominant.

[Ken Fry]

Matt,

Population plays a big part in your question.  Why is the remainder of Illinois not discussed  as opposed to Chicagoland?

Courses like Crooked Stick, Bridgewater, Sagamore, Wolf Run, Hawthorns, Woodland, etc. would have a difficult time surviving in other areas of Indiana.  They could be built obviously, but being supported would be another matter.

Sycamore Hills in Ft. Wayne has thrived in that community but many locals believe Ft. Wayne C.C. is a better course (I have not played it, so I don't know the strength of that claim).  The population in that area can support two high end clubs like that, but not many other courses of note exist in that area.

Victoria National is a nice place but has similar challenges to growing the membership in a small market.

South Bend could never support private clubs in league of Indianapolis as reflected in the cost (most initiations waived or under $10 k, yearly dues $5000 at the highest).  Tom Doak's Lost Dunes and Point 'O Woods are not far away and they both are working on increasing membership.

Central Indiana has little to offer beyond the Indianapolis area.  There are some courses like Hulman Links in Terra Haute, Harrison Lake CC in Columbus and Harrison Hills in Attica.  I comment this way because the Indy area does stretch quite far.

South has Victoria and Doak's Quail Crossing in Evansville and French Lick Resort Hills Course.  Sultan's Run has been mentioned previously.

The northern area of Indiana makes a strong case:  Long Beach CC outside Michigan City, South Bend CC, Warren at ND, Elcona CC, Ft. Wayne CC, Sycamore Hills, Liddy's Rock Hollow, Dye's Mystic Hills, Blackthorn.

Many of the arguments about finding quality golf remind me of growing up in Western Massachusetts.  The courses near Boston always received recognition while places like Taconic, Berkshire Hills, Pittsfield CC, Longmeadow, Greenock, etc. received very little acclaim.  Of course the lower prices to play reflect the trade off in notoriety, just like in Indiana.

Ken

[Andy Troeger]

I'd tend to agree strongly with what Ken has said regarding areas of the state. Most of my familiarity is with the northern portions, and all of the courses he mentioned are very strong. I'd also add in Morris Park CC and Sand Creek CC (at least some of the original parts of it) as well.

Fort Wayne CC is very good, although I've not played Sycamore so I can also not compare them.

I would guess that overall the depth of courses public and private around Indianapolis surpasses the other areas of the state, but maybe not by as much as the locals would think.

[John Nixon]

FWIW - my take on a few of these courses, and a few not yet mentioned.

As background, I'm pretty much a public course hacker. I've played all of one private course in the central Indiana area in the 23 years I've lived here, so my comparisons can't include the likes of Crooked Stick, Wolf Run, Broadmoor, et al.

To start with, my most recent round. Happened to be this morning, at Plum Creek, which I had never played before, despite living about a mile away from the course. Actually, I live across the street from the Brookshire clubhouse, which is an early 70's Bill Diddel design. Plum Creek was much more enjoyable than I expected. It doesn't look like much from the adjoining roads, being pretty flat, so I wasn't prepared for the nice job Liddy/Dye did with shaping the fairways and green complexes. It struck me as a pretty good course to use to show someone who doesn't know what is a "Liddy/Dye course"? Generous fairways, if you play them safe, but enough risk/reward offered to make it interesting if your driver is working. The major comlplaint I hear about this course from people I hang out with is that it's overpriced. I'd agree, in light of the abundance of courses in the area.

Eagle Creek was, indeed, dissected and reanimated in new form a few years ago. The "old" EC had a very distinctive feel and layout, and the new holes that were added suffered more from not having the same look as the old ones than from lack of innate quality. The new holes were located on flat, treeless farmland, which was quite different than the heavily wooded and tree-laden originals. As time goes on I expect the holes to be more accepted. Conditioning at EC has been hit-or-miss for a long time, as it has at another nice Indy muni:

Coffin If the grounds crew could get (and keep) Coffin in reasonable shape, this would, IMHO, be hands-down one of the best values in central Indy golf. A Liddy course. Tim, your course deserves better.

Pebblebrook - South yawwwwn...Sorry, perhaps the most boring routing in Hamilton County. Haven't played the North course, I hope it's more invigorating.

West Chase. Greatly underrated. Very nice combo of long and short par 4s, a few big elevation changes, and some tricky greens. Me likey.

Bear Slide. I've yet to hear a single person say they don't like this one. Someone mentioned the 18th hole - yep, it's a nice finisher. Like West Chase, a good combo of long and short holes, #15 is perhaps my favorite short par 4 in the area. I really like the routing, it covers all points of the compass.

Sahm. A very early Pete Dye muni. Compared to its peers in the Indy muni system (Riverside, South Grove, Pleasant Run) this is quite a cut above. The layout is certainly much more interesting and visually intimidating than you might expect for a $16/round course.  

Well, I could go on, but that's plenty for now. Have yet to play Purgatory, Trophy Club, Rock Hollow and Prairie View. Maybe next year....

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