[AndrewB]

There always seems to be a lot of talk of tree overgrowth and courses needing trees cut back or removed.  What about holes that make good use of trees as obstacles?

I played MacKenzie GC at Haggin Oaks in Sacramento, California (designed by Alister MacKenzie) for the first time last weekend.  I think the 11th (shown below) is a great example of a good use of trees to make a hole more interesting (and difficult too).

The second shot requires dealing with the single tree in the center of the fairway.  Given the fairway's width, each side of the tree is only slightly narrower than a typical fairway one would layup on.  The lay of the green, the pin position, and the location of your drive all play a part in making the decision of what side to play down.

The third shot requires playing over a group of trees that start about 65 yards from the green and end 15 yards short of the green (those numbers are guesses).  The trees are not too tall, so clearing them should not be difficult.  The trees do obscure one's view of the green, which does provide a bit of a psychological challenge.

The front-right of the green is higher than the front-left and slopes down towards the middle of the green.  As such, you can't see as much of the green's surface if hitting your approach from the right side of the fairway, further obscuring your view.  The green slopes away on the left and back right, creating a bit of a spine throughout the middle of the green that is higher than the rest (except the front right).  Additionally, the green itself sits a few feet higher than the fairway so it slopes away on all sides (but not as much as, say, a Pinehurst #2 green).

I think playing from the left side of the fairway is better because you see more of the green and are hitting your shot into upslopes in the green for most pins.  A back right pin may benefit from being on the far right because then you can hit it into the side-slope left of the pin, rather than on the downslope if coming in from the left.

The graphic indicates the right side of the fairway is wider, making playing down the left a more difficult shot.  I actually found playing down the left side to be more appealing on my second shot, but that may just be because I was on the left side of the fairway.  Oh, also, the fairway slopes right to left in the landing area of the drive, then flattens out.

What do others think about the use of trees on this hole?  Does anyone else have any good examples of good uses of trees on holes?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

There's an excellent oak tree standing to one side of the 18th fairway at Woodhall Spa.  You hardly notice it from the tee (especially the back tee) yet if you drive at all to the right of centre you find yourself struggling to find a way around the tree.  The only problem with the strategic use of a single tree is when it dies - the 1st at Spyglass, I believe, is an example.  There was one, too, in the middle of the 17th at Lilleshall Hall where I played as a lad (Colt design) but it succumbed to Dutch Elm disease and the hole is now a nothing hole.
I can think of trees over which you are required to play which have simply grown too tall for the likes of me - I can't any longer hit the ball high.

[wsmorrison]

The 11th hole at Huntingdon Valley Country Club.  I think everyone who hasn't ought to read Linc Roden III's feature interview on a variety of subjects including trees.  It is a wonderful piece that refers to a number of strategic trees used by Flynn.  I'll try to post an aerial and ground photo of the 11th.  In the meantime, here's the green from a photo that Ran had taken and is in the courses by country section.



From Google Earth, the trees at the far left corner of the fairway dictate the line of play from the tee to the partially hidden green.  The par 4 sixteenth green is at the top left and the par 3 17th hole is at the top right

[Jeff_Brauer]

Wayne,

With all due respect, I think most superintendents, when seeing the shady conditions of that green, would say that IS NOT a good use of trees! Not only is it not nice to fool mother nature, its impossible, and sometime that green will have huge problems.......

I do love the hole at Haggin Oaks presented and would love to design a similar one.  Of course, the first thing I would do is plant trees right under the existing ones, since I am quite sure lightning would strike the main ones in short order, eliminating the play value of the hole......

I might also question if that hole is too long for that concept?  At a shorter length, the trees might stop going for the green in two.  At 631 yards, the fw would have to be very wide on either side to allow many third shots to access the green.

[Craig_Rokke]

I like the tree that looms over the right side of #6 Inniscrone.
There's a tree at the Ocean course, I believe it can interfere with
the approach on #3 or #4, if I'm not mistaken. Also not a bad
use of a tree.

[AndrewB]

I might also question if that hole is too long for that concept?  At a shorter length, the trees might stop going for the green in two.  At 631 yards, the fw would have to be very wide on either side to allow many third shots to access the green.

One of the guys I played with actually did go for the green in two.  It was playing downwind and he carried it to the slight downslope in the fairway, getting quite a bit of roll.  He then hit a three wood that landed short of the left side of the grove of trees, then (luckily) skipped through without hitting a tree and ended up just short left of the green.  The ground underneath the trees in very hard and bare of grass, so he got a lot of roll.

I don't think that's the percentage play, but it worked out for him since he had a relatively easy up and down for birdie (which he converted).

Andrew

[A_Clay_Man]

Dye used trees effectively in Kohler. He even used a Willow.



Nature's Course: One of the most serene spots I've seen

Otherwise...


 

[Craig Sweet]

He used a willow? So close to a green? Obviously he has never had to maintain a golf course.

[wsmorrison]

Jeff,

I can see why there would be concern from looking at the green photograph.  Maybe one of the questions we can ask Scott Anderson is how he maintains the 11th green because even under the difficult conditions for growing grass that we've experienced in these parts that green is and usually is just fine.  I don't know how....must be paramagnetism.  By the way, the ridge  that bisects the green front to back is a feature that along with the trees dictate the lines of play.

[Norbert P]

 Barona Creek has a similar hole to the one Andrew presented but is not quite so linear.  

    http://www.barona.com/golf/hole-1.html

 (I tried to capture 'properties' for image but their website has some gestapo tactics installed)

On the whole, Barona Creek uses trees in groving, quite beautifully and effectively, and doesn't ever give a constrictive corridor feel.  

[Mike Benham]

At the first at Barona, you actually have a little more room on the right side of the tree to slingshot a draw around the tree.

The 12th at Stanford is famous for a tree in the middle of the fairway.  The length of this hole should be enough of a challenge but the height of the tee box and the width of the tree are compelling factors.  One additional feature is that the green is huge.

[Mike Hendren]

I like this lone tree on the otherwise expansive and sweeping 8th at The Members Club at Aldarra:



It provides a natural break in the angle of the dogleg that separates the men from the boys.  It is more challenging than strategic, and more strategic than penal.

[AndrewB]

The 12th at Stanford is famous for a tree in the middle of the fairway.

Mike,

Is there a clear side that is preferred or harder to hit on this hole?  The picture above makes it look like the left side might be slightly wider, while the right side opens up the approach to the green a bit.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

I always liked the tree on No. 3 here at The Ocean Course:



Here's a picture...

[AndrewB]

This is a wonderful golf hole using trees to dictate basically a single strategy.

Ah, now here's the real question: Is it a good use of trees to dictate a single strategy?  I might have more to say on this later as I have opinions on both sides.

[Mike Benham]

Is there a clear side that is preferred or harder to hit on this hole?  The picture above makes it look like the left side might be slightly wider, while the right side opens up the approach to the green a bit.

The yardage book drawing doesn't do the tree justice as the canopy is much wider (at least it was and the health of the tree has been some concern).

I prefer to play down the right side, as it is a better angle to the green.  For a play on the left side, it seems that you really need to bust one and keep it left to insure not problem with the tree on your second shot.

You should take a walk out there some day, park in the back lot, zip across the 10th tee/11th green and you are on the tee.

[Mike Benham]

I always liked the tree on No. 3 here at The Ocean Course:

I thought #3 was a fabulous hole.  The table top green coupled with the tree in the fairway makes for an interesting play.

During my round, the approach to #3 was dead into the wind and being squarely behind the tree, albeit quite a distance from it, it was nice to have the advantage of a balloning approach land softly on the putting surface.  Recovery from a missed approach would be a challenge.

[THuckaby2]

Re 12 Stanford, the drawing is indeed quite deceptive also in that it's really about TWICE as wide on the left as it is on the right.  So sure if I'm Calvin Peete or Mike Benham or some other incredibly straight hitter, I too prefer the right side as yes, the angle is MUCH better from there (the green actually goes much more at an angle to the left than the diagram shows also, and there is a spine in the middle that throws everything right...  a back left pin is really really tough to access from the left side).

The problem is there aren't many straight hitters like Calvin or Mike.  Remember too the entire right side is hazard.

That is one diabolical golf hole.  We had a very fun time doing NCGA rating on it.

 

[corey miller]

Hawk Point #2 by GCA visitor Kelly Blake Moran.  Long par four dogleg left with tree patially inside the dogleg making for a split fairway.  Better angle to green from left but also out of bounds on that side.  

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,


   #11 HVCC-- What about the trees just beyond the left fairway bunker. Were they there originally? Did Flynn have some in his design for that hole? They seem to be outside the long line of trees that go down the left side. My opinion is that they should go. This would make the left side more  tempting on the drive and make those trees on the left side of the green more interesting. As it is now it is just a mishit to go left .

[mike_malone]

 I think the best use of trees is as a grouping that creates a dogleg. This makes for different choices off the tee than a straight hole provides. It is more difficult to prevent cutting  the corner of a dogleg with any other hazard.

   The single tree idea inevitably loses out to the forces of nature.

   

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

The trees were large and in charge in 1938 aerials.  There were a few trees shown on the 1926 drawing.

Here's where we disagree again.  I think those trees are fantastic and help make that a wonderful golf hole.  Unique and extraordinary.  In my mind you couldn't be more wrong about something like this, but then again you never cease to amaze

I'm seeing Scott Anderson tomorrow to play golf at my favorite course and conduct the long-awaited interview.  I'll tell him you think they need to go and tell you what he thinks of your idea.

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,
    I  appreciate that. I'm sure he will agree with me. If he doesn't---he's an idiot.

[wsmorrison]

I look forward to Sully, Kyle, Tom Paul, Mike C and others commenting on your idea as well.  Mike, you're starting to really worry me.  You want to mess up one of the great holes on one of the great courses? Hmmm...we might have to lay in a new supply of blackballs  

[JESII]

Wayne,


   #11 HVCC-- What about the trees just beyond the left fairway bunker. Were they there originally? Did Flynn have some in his design for that hole? They seem to be outside the long line of trees that go down the left side. My opinion is that they should go. This would make the left side more  tempting on the drive and make those trees on the left side of the green more interesting. As it is now it is just a mishit to go left .

To referrence post #23 - why would you want players to be tempted by the left side on that hole?

Next time you're there, tell me how much of a mishit is required to flirt with those trees when you are in the center of the fairway at 125 aiming at a left pin.

Due to the size of those trees just over the bunker, I would say only one or two (of the ones not right at the creek edge) were in place 80 years ago.

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