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Mike_Cirba

See the Old Course #18 debate.

It's virtually the same question.

Once again, the answer is no.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike, you are really stirring the pot! ;D

199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

TEPaul

IF so, what would be some logical and benefical reasons for doing it?

Mike_Cirba

IF so, what would be some logical and benefical reasons for doing it?

Tom,

I'm sure that Shivas could find some.  ;)

It's virtually the same strategy as 18 at TOC, yet he seems rather inclined to change that one, as well.  ;D

Mike_Cirba

Shivas,

No, that's 11.

Here's 12





« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 04:17:02 PM by Mike Cirba »

TEPaul

"Shivas,

No, that's 11"

So what? Why not put a new pot bunker fairway right there too before moving on to #12? Put a bunch of smallish bunkers on every hole and pretty soon Rustic Canyon can have app 200 bunkers like Aronimink should have to make it a remarkable course in the mind of one Midwestern golf analyst who's never even seen the place.  ;)

Are 200 better than 100? Are 300 better than 200? Are 900 better than 800? These are very important architectural questions!  ;)

TEPaul

The only mystery to me about #12 Rustic Canyon is I'm not sure if they did what I told them to do with the green. It was all right there in a little diagram in the dirt in the middle of what was to become that massive fairway. Is it possible someone erased my little diagram by mistake before they got it right? It was an extremely beautiful little diagram too, very minimalist in dirt moving and extremely aesthetically please to the eye from anywhere for four to six feet six inches above it.  ;)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 04:28:56 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
This is not a valid comparison ...

First, I don't think Shivas has played #10 Rustic ...

Second, TOC#18 is a straight hole (no hazards between the tee and green) while RC#12 doglegs around bunkers ...

Click on the link below and pull up the yardage book to view aerial.

Rustic Canyon Yardage Book
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Mike_Cirba

Mike,

Yes, there are a couple of bunkers on the inside of the slight dogleg, which are roughly equivalent to going OB on 18 at TOC.  

However, like TOC on the left, the 12th at RC has TONS of room right to play safe, but then have to deal with the RC version of Valley of Sin and a really awkward pitch.

There are also penalties for driving too far left (OB) or long (gunch), but in reality, just like his complaint about 18 at TOC, it's a tough hole to make more than 4 for a touring pro.  

Shouldn't it be toughened?  Why give those folks all that room to the right??  Why not force them to drive more directly to the green??  ;D

DMoriarty

Ace,

It is certainly not an unfair question.  Shivas has a long history of expounding in great detail about holes he has never played-- especially holes at Rustic Canyon.

Mike,  I thought of this slight similarity as well, and the answer is no.  

Mike_Golden

Shivas,

Having played both holes I can tell you there is little similarity between them.

And no, a pot bunker shouldn't be added on either hole unless either Old Tom Morris comes back to earth and decides it belongs there or Gil and/or Geoff deems it worthy.  It seems to me they are much more qualified than us hacks in making those determinations-#10 at Rustic was certainly enhanced by the Hell's Half Acre so they are not in need of any 'advice' from the peanut gallery.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ace,

It is certainly not an unfair question.  Shivas has a long history of expounding in great detail about holes he has never played-- especially holes at Rustic Canyon.


It is a fair question to ask in the context of RC#12, it is not fair to compare TOC#18 and RC#12 ... (perhaps I was reading too much into the question ;) ) ...

How about a pothole on the road left of the fairway and green on #12?  Any chance that there was a pothole on that road sometime back and it has since been removed?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 06:12:13 PM by Ace Benham »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tommy_Naccarato

Schmiddy, Schmiddy, Schmiddy, Schmiddy, Schmiddy,

What in God's name are you talking about----NOW ? ? ? ? ? ;)

Having played both holes numerous times, your analogies remind me of the tourists I saw the three weeks I was there, being hustled off of the tour buses that took them in & out of there in the blink of an eye.

They got to see very little of a course that is more complex then a Tom Paul post and if asking them what they thought of the course, they really liked the caddies and Jigger Inn.

Dave, Please for the love of God, pick up a book like The Links or Architectural Side of Golf and learn instead of taking the time to post on the internet, making such ludicrous statements! :)

(I love busting his balls! Maybe David Moriarty is on to something!)

 

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Yes a bunker should be put out in that football size fairway. :) I've been saying it for a couple of years now, but DM keeps telling me I'm an idiot. ;) I feel there should be something to think about off the tee so you can't just get as close to the green as possible,with your only possible worry being hitting it left. DM assures me there are preferred places to be for most of the pin positions, but I haven't seen it in my many rounds there. Of course DM and DK have WAY more rounds there than I do. Irregardless of whether it ever changes, it is still one of my faves, and I consider it my home course even though it is 350 miles from my house. 8)
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

DMoriarty

Need I remind you David that you've given me about 5 dissertations now today about the 18th hole at St. Andrews, a hole you have never played!!

If that isn't the black calling the kettle pot, I don't know what is!

Guilty as charged.  I think I made it quite clear, repeatedly, that my comments were based on seeing the hole many times on television.  My guess is that I have seen the hole played on television hundreds of times.  Plus I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.   Unfortunately, I must have forgotten to tivo the numerous televised tournaments which took place at Rustic.

No matter, I welcome your detailed comments about holes at Rustic you have never seen (live or on memorex.)   If nothing else, they are entertaining.  
_______________________________

The physical layouts of RC 12 and TOC 18 arent really that similar.  As has been pointed out, there are bunkers between the tee and the green at RC 12.  Other physical differences--  The 12th green at Rustic is relatively small, and the hole plays pretty downhill.  

That being said,  there are some similarities when it comes to strategy based on what I have seen on television:

-- Both  holes present the golfer with a wide open fairway, deviod of obvious fairway obstacles.    
-- Because of the above, both invite the golfer to swing away.  (RC 12 tempts the golfer to swing away toward the right edge of the fringe or further right)
-- Because of the contours on and around the green, the approach shot/chip/pitch/putt on each hole varies significantly, depending on where the drive ends up.  

__________________________

Ace:  there may have been some pot plants on or near that road sometime in the past, but I doubt there was a pothole.  
« Last Edit: July 22, 2005, 03:09:24 AM by DMoriarty »

Tommy_Naccarato

Yes, Ed, and the 8th hole is going to be the toughest hole out there. Remember?!?!?! (I sure do!) ;)

TEPaul

"-- Because of the contours on and around the green, the approach shot/chip/pitch/putt on each hole varies significantly, depending on where the drive ends up."

David Moriarty;

I've never seen Rustic Canyon built but the idea behind the design of #12 and the enormous open fairway was supposed to be that it makes a different where the drive is on that fairway depending on the particular pin position. Do you think that's true in play?  

DMoriarty

"-- Because of the contours on and around the green, the approach shot/chip/pitch/putt on each hole varies significantly, depending on where the drive ends up."

David Moriarty;

I've never seen Rustic Canyon built but the idea behind the design of #12 and the enormous open fairway was supposed to be that it makes a different where the drive is on that fairway depending on the particular pin position. Do you think that's true in play?  


I think it is true, and some of the others who play regularly with do, too.  I always try to check out the pin from the 11th fairway, then hit my drive accordingly.  

It is a pretty subtle hole, though.  I think many probably see it as a completely mindless drive, whereever the pin.  On one level there is some truth to this, as one just about always has a shot no matter how thoughtless or poorly executed the tee shot, unless one goes left into the traps, gunk, or O.B., or drives through the fairway into the gunk long/right.  If one is happy with any drive that lands on short grass then it is a pretty boring drive, because there is plenty of fairway.  

But in my opinion certain pins are much more approachable from certain angles.   While those I play with might disagree with what angles and shots are best for certain pins, I think we generally agree that the hole changes significantly depending on the pin.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2005, 07:05:25 PM by DMoriarty »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Shivas,
  #18 TOC is by far the easier par. The green at Rustic is fantastic and very challenging, so a great drive doesn't make birdie a foregone conclusion.

Tommy,
  If I said that then I was wrong, even if you restrict the statement to just par 3's. Since #6 is tougher than #8.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

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