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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« on: May 07, 2005, 12:10:33 PM »
I am doing a course in Newton, KS, 30 Miles due east of Faldo's new course in Hutchison, so I stopped by to tour the constructions site, and also toured Prairie Dunes again.  Some impressions.....

The site is as spectacular as PD, although there are a few flatter areas, and there is no question it is one of the top five projects being built in the US this year.  However, the project is a pure housing course, with mostly single fairways with houses on both sides, some moderate walks to the next hole (occaisioned I think by more by Faldos use of land and not the need for housing) and with not overly wide golf corridors.  

Like my Colbert Hills to the north, or Fazios Wild Dunes in SC, or any housing course on a great site, the course will eventually suffer when the houses sell.  Some question whether there is a market for such houses in Hutch, but I noted there are a few other new subdivisions going in town, so maybe there is more hidden wealth out there than we know.

The course is only 8 holes built since August, which is remarkably slow by modern standards.  They hope to get nine holes grassed this year.  So, if you believe taking your time yields a better course, you probably think this one will be very special.

There is a LOT to like about this course, including a few of the best looking greens and green sites I can recall.  Tees are square, and often cut right of the top of a dune while leaving the native grass nearly intact.

Greens have a fairly modern look.  At first, I wondered if that fit the site, especially after going to so much trouble to build old looking tees, but after touring PD again, I was reminded that they are basically Maxwell standard greens on a spectacular site.  

For that matter, I was a bit surprised to see rounded tees at PD, having recalled everything about the place as 'traditional."  (BTW, the USGA had just visited PD and marked fw widths, etc. for the 06 Senior Open)

Bunkering is a mix of Chart Hills looking formal bunkers with dramatic shapes, and a few, simpler shaped "Blowout" bunkers, which have the native grasses kept on the far side.  Bunkering is all visible, random as befits a dunes site, and  in some cases, a seeming tribute to other courses. One hole has bunkers arranged to offset the fw, but they are visually in a straight line, much like the sixth hole at PD three miles west.  The par 4 5th (about 460 yards, has a bunker similar in shape and relative location to Augusta 10).

There is a nice mix of green sizes, but they tend to be small to medium.  The bigger greens, have modern lobes and shaping, sub dividing them into smaller targets.  Most seem to require real precision shots, and they are well contoured! Faldo has a nice touch with green contours, although there are a few which some will think are too severe for a resort course.  Of course, as Lou Duran likes to point out, who am I to talk! ;)

I was "warned" by folks who had been there that they had "gone Scottsdale" with this, including wall to wall paths, etc.  Overall, I think they probably need them, and did a good job of hiding them.

If there was anything that was too Scottsdale, it was the use of formal stone retaining walls on a number of ponds, and one on a short par 3 4th hole, with a reciruclating stream in front of a near island green.  To my eye, those didn't fit.

There is some blindness on the course, most on account of the dunes.  He had the option of leaving them, with a blind hole, or smoothing them out and cutting through them, but "sanitizing" the site.  He has a mix of both, and the shaping on the ones where he cut through it very natural.

There are also some ponds on the property, and some are blind, like the 10 hole, a par 5 where, because an old natural gas line limited grading,  the pond guarding the green is completly blind.  On the 3rd hole they created several small ponds/wetlands on the perimeter of play to generate fill which can come into play inadvertantly without visibility.  

I was surprised to see how many holes had water hazards on a sand dunes site.  However, the water table here is about 2 feet below ground.  Dig a hole, and it fills with water quickly.....so it is natural.  The water table and preplanning for future subdivision means there is a lot of large drain pipe going in.  Its necessary, but seems odd when driving through pure sand that drains well.  On the flat area holes, there will be a few catch basins in the fairways.

This will be a championship course, especially given Kansas winds.  There will be only 70 acres of turf proposed on a 7300 yard course, and it isn't nearly as wide as I would make it.  Fairways will be Zoysia, a good choice, but they will make the course play longer. He has three double fairway holes, but each exist in about the same width as I did for one fw up at Colbert Hills.  On the 8th hole, a par 5, he saved some native yucca, which requires a 250 yard carry from the tips into the prevailing wind to hit the fw.  I wonder if play experience will force them to reduce some carries and widen landing areas at some point, given that it is a resort.

Well worth the trip to see, and it will be a very good course.  I suspect it could do quite well, especially if PD opens itself at least on a limited basis to hotel guests.  It definitely beats my site in Newton, which is bounded by RR tracks on all sides, plus houses.  We have the same water table problems there as Cottonwood Hills has. I will go back as my project progresses to see how the course turns out.  

I doubt Brad or Ron Whitten will hire me to write golf course reviews based on this piece, but I though some of you would appreciate a bit of an overview of the course.





Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2005, 12:23:18 PM »
Jeff:

Thanks for the report.  By any chance did you find out who is helping Faldo with the project architecturally ... is it someone we know, or someone from England, or is he really designing it by himself?

No question it is one of the top five projects being built in the US this year?  Perhaps you underestimate the competition ... there's a lot of good stuff underway right now.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2005, 02:29:53 PM »
Tom,

According to those on site, Faldo walked the course several times during routing with his in house gca Guy Hockley of England.  He has visited twice during construction, taking particular interest in the 8th green, but is not due back.  Hockley visits every 4-6 weeks for design input and is said to be very good, and very technically knowledgeable.  

Chuck Ermish (sp) a golf course architect out of KC comes out most frequently, as you might expect, to answer questions, having signed some kind of agreement with Faldo to be the local representative. I believe Chuck cut his teeth with Don Sechrest, Craig Shreiner or both and now has his own practice.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2005, 02:43:54 PM »
Tom,

Wouldn't a Prairie Dunes clone site have to rank up there somewhere, at least site wise?  I talked to them about designing the course, and all I could say walking around the property was I wished I had gotten the project.

Besides your Long Island Project, where is there a better site, assuming the Sand Hills courses are delayed a year as has been reported?  Just curious.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2005, 03:09:25 PM »
Jeff:

I wish you'd gotten the job, too.  As for better sites:

Erin Hills in Wisconsin, which Ron Whitten and Dana Fry are working on now, is a very similar site to what you described at Cottonwood Hills ... without the houses.  I wish I'd gotten THAT job.

Our Ballyneal project up in NE Colorado is a bit more like Sand Hills than Prairie Dunes ... no houses and no ponds there, either.  And the site we'll start on in Montana this summer is as good as any of them.

I just assumed that there was SOMEONE out there working on a great site other than the ones I've looked at.  :)


Lance Rieber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2005, 03:15:24 PM »
Tom, just curious where the course in Montana is?
Lance

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2005, 03:21:41 PM »
Lance:

It's on a ranch in Deer Lodge, about 100 miles south-east of Missoula.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2005, 03:22:18 PM by Tom_Doak »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2005, 03:41:06 PM »
Tom, this is the site we talked about 3 years ago, Ran, myself and Jeff Lewis have all walked it. It is a great piece of property. I had wanted to do a simple "golf only" club one much along the lines of Ran's Carthage Club as listed. Thought it would be a $5MM project (irrigation, course, simple club house and some dorm rooms) and didn't think I'd get enough national members at $15,000 per, to much risk.

Hope they make the most of it given the big plans they have for the development. Any chance your friend from NYC might develop his land which is even closer to Prairie Dunes.

Jeff, did you get a chance to see the work done by Dave Axland and Stan George's crew at Prairie Dunes? You might have something there regarding the tees, I suspect many that are not in the dunes might look better somewhat more squared off. I understand they will with time and money do some of this particuarly the #1 and #8 tees.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2005, 04:06:47 PM »
Brad,

Good thing you didn't get it going ... because you would have had a hell of a hard time completing it for $5 million!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2005, 05:55:27 PM »
Jeff, did you get a chance to see the work done by Dave Axland and Stan George's crew at Prairie Dunes? You might have something there regarding the tees, I suspect many that are not in the dunes might look better somewhat more squared off. I understand they will with time and money do some of this particuarly the #1 and #8 tees.

Brad,

I did see that.  The bunkers are reminiscent of the Sand Hills work and look nice.  I visited the clubhouse where they have pictures of the course from different eras.  I was struck by the fact that in most pictures, the bunkers had smooth edges, typical of Maxwell, and may never have had the style of the new bunkers.  To my eye, they are a visual improvement, but I couldn't help but wonder if anyone would complain that these weren't a true restoration?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2005, 07:49:06 AM »


Sounds like it could be one of the top fives "sites" for a new course this year.  However, given the mandate with housing, wall to wall cart paths and a resort feel in addition to a 7300 yard course, it does seem it will be less likely to end up as one of the top five projects.

Sounds like the land could have been put to a better golfing use.

Jeff

I would also not confuse "taking your time" with good work.  It seems it is more important to "be on site and take your time".

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2005, 09:37:25 AM »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2005, 09:41:56 AM »
That is good land.  Looks like they're doing more shaping than I would, though.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2005, 10:08:09 AM »
How can you keep the idiosyncracies of the land with all those 'dozer tracks everywhere?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2005, 01:39:25 PM »
Paul:

"Tracking in" features with a dozer is one way to keep some of the idiosyncracies in the fairways, if you do it the right way.  Running over an area with the tracks will leave the land wrinkly, but less likely to blow around in the wind, and more mowable as well.  And you have to do SOMETHING once the vegetation has been stripped off, to counteract the work of the machines which did that.

It's when you put the blade down, and start pushing up mounds or excavating hollows, that you start getting shapes that are out of character with the rest of the site.  Ultimately, though, the finish crew will determine whether the contours feel natural or bulldozed.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2005, 01:49:46 PM »

I did see that.  The bunkers are reminiscent of the Sand Hills work and look nice.  I visited the clubhouse where they have pictures of the course from different eras.  I was struck by the fact that in most pictures, the bunkers had smooth edges, typical of Maxwell, and may never have had the style of the new bunkers.  To my eye, they are a visual improvement, but I couldn't help but wonder if anyone would complain that these weren't a true restoration?

Jeff,

You raise a good point.  Although I haven't seen C&C's bunker work at Prairie Dunes I'm wondering if it's a leap from Maxwell's style?  

I'm also wondering if anyone on this group besides perhaps Tom MacWood would actually call them on it if it isn't consistent with Maxwell and the history of the course?

They design really cool looking bunkers, but is that enough, in and of itself?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2005, 01:58:19 PM by Mike_Cirba »

David Sneddon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2005, 02:02:17 PM »
Paul:

"Tracking in" features with a dozer is one way to keep some of the idiosyncracies in the fairways, if you do it the right way.  Running over an area with the tracks will leave the land wrinkly, but less likely to blow around in the wind, and more mowable as well.  And you have to do SOMETHING once the vegetation has been stripped off, to counteract the work of the machines which did that.

Tom:
I can understand that the 'dozer tracks would leave the land less likely to blow around, but can you explain, please, how it would make it more mowable??  I'd have thought that ridges in the grass layer would cause uneven mowing.

Thanks
Give my love to Mary and bury me in Dornoch

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2005, 02:12:37 PM »
Mike:  I know Bill Coore has been consultant at Prairie Dunes for years, and for a long time he didn't touch the shapes of the bunkers because of their historic look, even though I'm sure he thought he could build something which looked better.  I don't know what was the turning point for turning Dave Axland loose.

It is an interesting quandary.  Clearly Prairie Dunes is Perry Maxwell's best and most famous course (or at least the nine holes he built while he was alive), and Perry Maxwell never paid much attention to ragged edges in his bunkering, despite having been trained by Dr. MacKenzie.  For that reason, I would have been inclined to leave the bunkers alone.

Ironically, many people would cite Prairie Dunes, along with Merion   :'( , as being one of the courses most influential in having unplayable native material on the fringes of its bunkers, and yet both courses did so without the jagged edges which are preferred in the current Photogenic Age.  But the club has apparently decided they'd prefer the C&C look to the Maxwell look.  The good news is, if they ever change their minds, it will give another architect something to restore twenty years from now when work is slow.


brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2005, 08:05:00 PM »
I think the bunkers today have more of the look of the old B&W photos from the late 30's (look at #2's bunkers as an example) and hope we don't see Tom out there in the future making them perfectly round as many where as little as 2 years ago.

I do hope Tom does a project in Hutchinson one day! :)  
« Last Edit: May 08, 2005, 08:05:51 PM by brad_miller »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2005, 08:14:37 PM »
David:  I missed your post.  Whatever ridges there are from the dozer tracks tend to get blown away (or dragged away) just prior to planting, but in the meantime it settles things down WITHOUT regrading anything.

You'd be amazed what comes out in the wash, anyway.  A few years ago it was decided that the best way to seed greens was to run over them with a sand pro after seeding, to make a "waffle" pattern with the tires so that moisture held in the little pockets and the grass would get going faster.  The first time I saw this I thought it was nuts, but the waffles tend to go away via root growth and mowing equipment, and it had no discernible impact on the smoothness of the putting surface afterward.

David Sneddon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2005, 09:17:11 PM »
David:  I missed your post.  Whatever ridges there are from the dozer tracks tend to get blown away (or dragged away) just prior to planting, but in the meantime it settles things down WITHOUT regrading anything.

You'd be amazed what comes out in the wash, anyway.  A few years ago it was decided that the best way to seed greens was to run over them with a sand pro after seeding, to make a "waffle" pattern with the tires so that moisture held in the little pockets and the grass would get going faster.  The first time I saw this I thought it was nuts, but the waffles tend to go away via root growth and mowing equipment, and it had no discernible impact on the smoothness of the putting surface afterward.

Thanks for the info, Tom, much appreciated.
Give my love to Mary and bury me in Dornoch

Stuart Donald

Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2005, 01:51:48 AM »
David

I would like to add to Tom's comments - if you don't mind. The Dozer tracking by virtue of weight and more importantly, weight distribution, causes the ground surface to compress (not compact) with minimal lateral movement. Once the Dozer has made a couple of passes over an area of undulation, the surface becomes slightly, but not dramatically, smoother and 'flows' better. Follow this with some type of mat or drag-float and you end up with a finished surface that sometimes looks better than after its grassed and is one of the most rewarding and satisfying points of the process.
Tracking is an art employed by some shapers and should be recognised by all designers as a finishing resource. Its amazing how close most surfaces are to finished product once the grass or ground cover is removed and also very dissapointing how much of this gets destroyed in the earthworks, irrigation installation and drainage processes. The great surfaces of the old courses are revered because of their intricacies and subtle movements. Today's land has not changed, but the practices of construction have.

RT

Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2005, 02:00:10 AM »
Stuart,

Great observations there, esp. the aspect of drainage and irrigation installation disruptions.

RT

David Sneddon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Faldo's Cottonwood Hills
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2005, 06:49:04 AM »
Stuart:

Thanks for your reply.

Being something of a neophyte to design/architecture, I had always thought the dozer scraped the land to the designers requirements and after levelling it was seeded.  I had no idea of the intracacies involved in the shaping process.

Your and Tom's replies are why I came here.

Thanks again.
Give my love to Mary and bury me in Dornoch

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