[Jonathan McCord]

   Firm and Fast is one thing but, but greens rolling 14 to 15!?!?!?  Having never played Pine Tree I will need to ask some questions first.

   1. What is the type of grass grown on the greens?

   2. Is there any undulations on these greens? I have a hard time imagining a ball staying any where on the green from any where above the hole.

   I enjoy firm and fast conditions as much as anybody.  Having not had any rain for 2 to 3 weeks here in Michigan, things got pretty firm, and I have to say, I throuoghly enjoyed playing in these conditions.

   But I raise the question, and this is not an attack on Pine Hill or any other course, is there a point where greens get to fast and to firm.  I'm sure you are all thinking back to the 2004 Shinnecock mess.  However, I believe that was just ignorance on the part of the USGA.

   Once greens get beyond a certain speed, granted it depends largely on the undulations of the greens and its' surrounds, does it jeopardize the character of the hole?  If green speeds get to fast, you lose pin placements, it makes it extremely difficult for the average golfer, and can even be deterimental to the grass.

   A couple years ago, Mike Morris, superintendant at Crystal Downs did a study of green speeds and such.  I found the study to be extremely interesting and informative, as it focuses as much on uniformity and consistency, as it does overall speed.  Here is a link to the article.

http://grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_tools_trade/

   All I ask is that you read this article and tell the GCA, what you think about green speeds and how in the hell speeds upward of 13 are good for the game.  I admit, I would love to play a course ONCE, just to see what the heck it is like to putt on greens that speed.  Let's just imagine for a second putting on The Home Green at Sitwell Park with green speeds upwards of 15, BOY WOULD THAT BE FUN!!!!!

[Joe Hancock]

Jonathan,

I think most here agree that speeds are out of control when it prompts greens comittees to soften contours of golden age greens. However, I'm not sure how we collectively feel about green speeds when we play a modern course with relatively flat greens. My personal opinion is not necessarily with green speeds, but more with the arrogance with which some clubs, and even supers, will openly discuss the ridiculous green speeds they purport to achieve.

As an example, I played in a superintendents association event a couple years ago. As we were getting our welcome and rules announced to us, the super got on the PA and told us he conditioned the course for us the same way he did for an event just days before.....he quadruple mowed and doubled rolled the greens so they were running a supposed 14 on the ol' Stimpy. Boy, was I impressed.

Joe

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jon-
  Just a correction, It's Pine Tree, not Pine Hill. (Pine Hill-NJ and cool season grass)
 Also, knowing that both these courses are located in southern Florida, south enough that they don't have to overseed, they're putting on bermuda-tifeagle, tifdwarf, champion....
  I don't mind fast greens at all, as long as they are fair. I played at Daniel's Island in Charleston, SC this winter and their greens were running 14, but as long as I was below the hole I was fine. What I didn't like is they were posting their green speeds for the day in the pro job-That is where things are getting out of control

[Joe Hancock]

As a footnote,

The other thread addressing Pine Tree and Seminole was started by Pat Mucci, not Patrick Mucci.......

did someone steal Pat's name?

Joe

[TEPaul]

Firstly, I'm not sure I believe that courses can get their greens to 14 or 15 on the stimpmeter. That is to a legitimate stimpmeter reading on a flat surface in both directions. To get a legitimate stimp reading of that speed would basically require a mowing height of too far under .10 (!/10) of an inch and its almost impossible to get much lower than that given the limitation of the bed-knive width. Championship bed-knives or bed-knives filed to cut much below a 1/10 of an inch wouldn't last much more than a single mowing cycle---and bed-knives ain't that cheap. You'd probably also have to mow in all four directions and really roll too to get greens that fast.

But greens that are at 11 or over with and kind of slope and contour can result in putts getting out of control real quick on slopes and contours of much degree.

My feeling is greens on any course don't need to be over 11 EVER for anyone to be really challenging (and that includes US Opens) and I also feel that most any course can probably handle greens of up to 10 before they get out of control. An offiical legitimate stimp reading of around 11 (flat surface both ways) is a speed many golfers think is 14 or 15 anway. It isn't. I doubt any of us have ever seen a green legitimately stimp at 14. If any of us did it would feel like 20. Oakmont, I was told by the super never runs any faster than 13 and I can guarantee if almost all golfers tried to putt Oakmont at 13 they would think the greens were stimping at 20.

[PThomas]

In Pete Dye's book he said that Jack told him that the greens at MV were stimping at 16 one time

[TEPaul]

Paul:

Anybody can say anything, including Pete Dye but that doesn't necessarily mean it's true.  

[PThomas]

Tom -- can you clear this one up for me once and for all:  does Oakmont really slow the greens down for the pros?

Johnny Miller said the most difficult greens in golf are Oakmont, Oak. Hills, and Augusta ...any comments???

I'll never forget the highlight tape from the 83 open at Oakmont...Watson was near the front of the 9th (?) green with a chip shot...he barely plopped it on and it kept rollong and rolling and rolling so slowly...til it got to within 5 feet..what tough

then he missed the putt!

[Pat_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Trust me on the speed.  They're 14-15.
Without being rolled.

The grass is down to the bone, or dirt.

It's been dry and warm for the last few weeks.
So conditions are ideal

What shocks everyone is that they're not used to putting on greens of that speed.  If you putted on them for a month, you'd get adept at coping with them, altering your playing strategy and perfecting shots to meld with the conditions.

Pine Tree's slopes aren't as severe as Seminole's.

Their is some contouring, but I'd describe it as mild.

What is wild, is the amount of break in super fast greens, even on mildly sloped or mildly contoured greens, it's mind boggling, and takes a while to adjust your headset with respect to reading greens.

Joe Hancock,

It's me, I'm just using someone else's computer.

[Neil Regan]

There is a confusion in terms here.

Green speed and grass speed are 2 different things.

[Don_Mahaffey]

TEPaul,
Believe it.
I know a supt who buys the thinnest bedknives possible and then grinds them down so he can mow at .065.
With today's technology it is most definitly possible to get greens in the 15 range.
Used to be you got them as fast as possible, now you need to use common sense. But, in some circles it's still a pissing contest when mowing heights and stimp readings are the topic.

[Craig Sweet]

I agree with TEPaul, I find it hard to believe anyone had their greens clocking at 14 or 15.

And Don, that supt. mowing to .065, does he have a death wish?

[Pat_Mucci]

Craig Sweet,

If you agree with TEPaul, I'd keep that a secret.
To do otherwise will compromise your credibility.

Both clubs close for six months in one and two weeks, respectively.

[Craig Sweet]

Heck, my credibility was shot when I suggested they either stop making changes to ANGC or move the Masters to another course.

It sounds like these fast greens are toast, but it was a planned scapling in anticipation of overseeding or something?

[Pat_Mucci]

Craig,

Seminole does it every April for the Coleman.
They're closed for the summer on May 9th.

Pine Tree is doing it because they're regrassing the golf course on May 2nd.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Long Cove did something of the same nature before they closed for their re-grassing several years back. I was told that they were cutting at .080 and greens were running around 14....it's easy to stress a plant that much if you don't have to worry about that it in 2 months!!

[TEPaul]

Don and Pat et al;

I'm not saying it's not possible to get greens to 14 or 15 on a legitimate stimp reading. It is possible because it's been done. While talking to Michaud last year at Shinnecock he told us he got Shinnecock's greens to 14 once or twice because the club asked him to (this was not the US Open last year). I doubt it could be done or would be done with regularity though for sort of obvious reasons. But that's the health and well-being of the turf. Another time talking to Michaud in the maintenance building about actually mowing to those types of speeds he took us out to the machine shop and showed us the bed-knives that accomplish that. He said basically you can't physically get them any thinner than what he showed us and that bed-knives that thin he only uses on up to six greens max for one cutting.

The other factor is the playability of greens that are that fast. The point is that greens with a legitimate official stimp reading (that being two ways on a flat surface) of 14 or 15 are in another dimension when you consider contour and slope. On even mild contour and slope at that speed---say areas of 2-3+ degree of fall, balls will travel without stopping for 30-40-50 feet and right off greens etc or until they find a basically flat spot somewhere on a green.

Greens that fast with any degree of slope or contour really do get something like putting on glass or a marble floor. The reason is there just isn't any friction left on the surface, or enough of it left on the surface to bring the ball to a halt. Some may think that's fun and challenging and in some ways it may be on totally flattish surfaces but when you throw in normal putting green slope and contour it can become a virtually impossibility to transition a golf ball from one part of a green to a pin on another part of the green. It's not that a golf ball wouldn't stop on those flattish areas around some pins but the point is when the ball tries to transition from other parts of greens there's virtually no way to have it get into those areas around pins going slow enough---simply because there's virtually no way to transition it into those areas without having it first build up too much speed as it transitions from any slope and contour on its way to that flattish pin area. I think you know what I mean by this.

Is that fun? Is that challenging and interesting if it becomes virtually impossible to do for any player of any level or skill?

[Mike Hendren]

From a Memphis newspaper article in August 2004:

Because bent grass greens require such frequent bathing in the summer, many golfers have learned to expect their approach shots to land like darts on area bent greens, especially in the summer when they play the most golf.

That will change at courses where bent is making way for the new Ultradwarf Bermudas like Champion. With the Bermuda soaking up the summer heat, maintenance crews won't need to over-saturate greens.

That will make the greens less receptive to approach shots and put more of a premium on creative shotmaking into greens.

In other words, a golfer cannot expect to take dead aim at a flag and have his ball stop exactly where it lands.

"It'll be a much firmer surface as far as receiving the shot," said Bill Garner, Russ's brother and part-owner at Windyke.

The Champion Bermuda greens can also be pushed to mach speeds on the stimpmeter. At last summer's Tennessee Golf Association Mid-Amateur, Lingle had Memphis Country Club's greens running at an unheard of 14.5 on the stimpmeter.

That's faster than greens at many major tournaments, and it helped protect the course, with only one golfer, champion Danny Green, finishing the three-round event under par.

"Champion enables us to have greens that are really fast and stay fairly firm," said Lingle.

But with the speed comes another consideration. Courses must make sure the areas surrounding the green have the kinds of contours and drainage systems needed to stay firm. Otherwise, you could create a situation where the green surface is so hard and so fast that any approach landing on it skitters off and a surrounding area that is still so soft and receptive that approaches hit it and stop.

[TEPaul]

Bents need to be saturated?? This new A-1 and A-4 sure doesn't. It thrives on dryness, and consequently maintenance can dry out and firm up green surfaces with it far more than the older bent strains or multi-strains. The new "A" strain is far more stress-free because it loves dryness. But it is a much denser grass in blades per square inch so I suppose it needs a different maintenance process over time to keep it de-thatched which is one of the primary reasons for green receptiveness to an incoming golf ball.

Same with firm and fast on fairways. If you want the ball to really bounce and roll on fairways those fairways have to not ony be dried out they have to have the thatch kept out of them and that does take normal cycles of aeriation or even tynning.

[Mike Hendren]

Tom Paul,

Perhaps you've never played golf in Memphis in August.  

Champion has been a welcome solution to the problematic transition zone that cuts horizontally through the middle of the Volunteer state.  

Mike

[ChasLawler]

Champion has been a welcome solution to the problematic transition zone that cuts horizontally through the middle of the Volunteer state.  

Mike,
How does Champion hold up in the winter?

[Mike Hendren]

Cabell,

I don't know.  Apparently the greens remain playable while the grass is dormant, but I'm guessing the supers cover them when the weather is harsh.

Bottoms line seems to be that the new bermuda in winter is more playable than the old stressed bent is in the summer.    

Mike  

[TEPaul]

MikeH:

I don't know what you're referring to in post #19. What does that have to do with exceeding the speed limit on putting greens? I'm talking, of course, about the playable speed limit, not an agronomic speed limit or a speed limit over which becomes deleterious to the health of the putting green's turf.

[A_Clay_Man]

When I spoke with a super in Fl. he made reference to his mentor as being one who liked to push the envelope. If they say it can only go to .1, he'd take it .09. I believe Don when he says he knows a guy. but what this layman wants to know is where is that measured up from? The base of the blade ? the start of the root? What is the basis?

On the issue of speed, reckless kills. BTW, Loved the reference to the mountain pass high desert driving, welcome to my life. However, some of the blame surely must fall on the equiptment manufactuers playing on the egos of the idle rich when they construct and design these putters more like surgical instruments, and charge accordingly.

It seems when I play these flatter greens My new montra is "I hate modern greens." There is never a putt with more movement than a ball or two, which translates to playing every putt inside the cup or dern near close. yawn

Thank goodness there are a few bolder more wise designs recently (and cooperative course owners/mgr.s) who emphaitaclly state they will never get their speeds above 10. Black Mesa comes first to mind.

 I know I am in absolute heaven on courses where the secrets are figurable (is that a word?)and the overall terrain dictates the dominat slope, and i'm left with a putt that I can use MY imagination to decide the speed for the line I choose. Just like the mountain passes.

Seeing that the article was written in 2003, I was alittle frightened, when near the end of the piece, he almost justified the speed race and the softening of the classics. I hope reason will out.

[TEPaul]

One of the things I thought was particularly interesting about that article hyperlinked above was the very interesting green speed test done with the super and the membership of Crystal Downs---a test done without actual reference to any stimpmeter reading when the test was being conducted!). In my opinion, that course has a few greens that are pretty radical in slope and contour (#1, #8, #10, #13)  and so if that membership can live with and enjoy a green speed up to around 10.5 almost any course probably can too. This does not mean, of course, that every course needs to maintain speeds of 10.5 only that they probably can if they want to without going over the top in playability. That's a pretty good benchmark for what I refer to as a "reasonable maximum" speed for most of the older style higher sloped and contoured greens.

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