[PThomas]

Just saw Mike Golden's (very positive) comment about these courses..do others agree?  what Doak rating would give them?
any other comments are, of course, welcome

happy St. Pat's -- and remember Saturday is St. Joseph's day

thanks/pt

[Brent Hutto]

Paul,

One of the possibilities I'm considering for either Monday or Tuesday while we're in Monterey is a 36-hole day playing both Bayonet and Black Horse. Heck, the motel I'm staying at is only a mile or two down the road from Fort Ord.

[Mike_Golden]

Brent,

Which hotel are you staying in?  I stayed at the Holiday Inn Express in Marina last week and it was a real find for $65 a night-only two years old, free DSL, free breakfast-probably much nicer than the similar ones in Seaside, which is a little closer to Monterey (maybe 5 miles).

I'll leave comments to others about Bayonet/Black Horse.  I think they are fair yet difficult courses that can chew up both the amateur and professional-when the Nationwide Tour plays Bayonet the winning score is typically 1 or 2 under.  A local told me last week when they have Tour qualifying on Black Horse the medalist is usually 7 or 8 under for 72 holes.

[Brent Hutto]

There's a Howard Johnson and the Econo Lodge Bay Breeze in Seaside, each for around $53/night. I picked the Econo Lodge because it has a microwave and refrigerator in the room for about the same price.

I hadn't really looked closely at the listings for Marina but if the Holiday Inn Express is decent and affordable I may end up there instead. I have no illusions that either of the $50 places in Seaside are particularly great.

[Mike_Golden]

I drove past both of those last week and can assure you the Holiday Inn Express is much, much nicer than either of them.  It's possible I'll be in Monterey at the same time as you so maybe we could hook up for Bayonet and Black Horse.  I'll let you know where I'm going to be on those days (I'm assuming the Monday and Tuesday before KP IV-if it's after I'll definitely be there.

[Brent Hutto]

It's after.

The current version of my ever-changing itenerary, which come to think of it hasn't changed a bit in a week or two now, is to arrive at OAK on Friday the 8th and drive out to Stevinson that night.

Sunday evening after the KP-IV and associated Masters-watching is done I'll drive to Seaside/Marina whatever and be there from Sun-Wed nights, departing from OAK on Thursday the 14th. Only Wednesday is firmed up golf-wise although a couple of us had discussed maybe Pasatiempo on Monday, or maybe Tuesday.

I'm basically going to play golf every day and try to squeeze in a couple hours at the aquarium and at least one good dinner down in Carmel. Beyond that it's a TBD.

[cary lichtenstein]

We recently played Bayonette and found it hard and boring. We were kind of over golfed at the time, so maybe our opinions aren't too valid, but it was heavily tree lined, no dog legs, very straight forward.

We played 9 holes and called it a day.

[peter_p]

Brett, Mike
Here is a coupon for Holiday Inn Express w/golf at Bayonet or Black Horse course  http://www.monterey.com/mc9/coupons/HolidayMarina.html

I'll be there, but will lay off one day and play Pacific Grove the other.

[Mike_Golden]

Cary,

You should have played the back 9-the area known as 'Combat Corner' has two very severe doglegs in a row.  I'm guessing you were just overwhelmed by all the other great courses you played during your trip.

Mike

[Evan_Green]

Hard is definately a word to describe Bayonet. But I would go further than that. It is just plain unfair in places and only so because of the overgrowth of trees. I havent played there for 1.5 years, so maybe this has changed, but the tree branches in place go right down to the ground.

Thus if you hit the ball into the treeline in these places, just chipping out onto the fairway is a major accomplishment.

I really wish they would cut those trees back - it could be a good course if they did. As it is now, better bring your lunch- you could be out there hacking for a while- especially if you are having a poor ball striking day....

Its one thing to have tree lined fairways, but these trees are over the top- I did see some guys with chainsaws out there doing a bit of trimming when I last played, there so maybe they're getting the idea...

[Jonathan Cummings]

I agree with Evan - neither course at Ord is worthy of the frequent praise I hear.  The lanes of play are unnecessarily narrow.  Trees, like soldiers rigid and at attention, line the left and right sides of many fairways, shoulder to shoulder.  I played both courses in a day and can't remember one hole - I was just left with the impression that the courses boast few options.

JC

[A_Clay_Man]

There's plenty of really good features to diesect at Ft. Ord. Mostly the greens, are some of the most unique (and severe) you'll play.
The trees are an issue, but no where near the arborial embarassment they used to be.

On Bayo; The second's seemless green from the fairway, the third's wicked green and uphill makes getting close rare. The fifth has one of the most unique green fronts, utilizing a small mound and drop-off on the left to create deception. The sixth (first par 3) can be as tough as any, uphill with the unfelt wind off the ocean, and the severity of green slope from left to right. (notice the first one shotters is the sixth; allowing for some warm-up to the challenge) The seventh hole may be the most disectable. A short two-shotter with a blind green that slopes away from a faultline, of san andreas proportions.
The eighth is another one-shotter with a green that slopes severe from right to left. The ninth is a narrow drive to another tricky tricky green.

I'll stop there, but suffice to say, on the 36 hole facility one is likely to see more gca variety, than anywhere else I know of. Including an infamous middle of the landing area tree.

[Andy Doyle]

Brent:

I would highly recommend your plan for a 36-hole day at Fort Ord.  I did exactly that last April.  My wife had a meeting in Monterey, so I tagged along for some guilt-free golf (what's a guy to do during the day when your wife is working?).

I drove over early in the morning, and was able to get off in the first group with a couple of regulars on Bayonet.  We finished so quickly I got back to the clubhouse while they were still serving breakfast - great pancakes!  I then played Black Horse, and had plenty of time to have a leisurely beer on the patio and enjoy the view of Monterey bay before hooking up with my wife for a great dinner in Monterey.

It's pretty hilly - I walked and was dog-tired by the end of the round at Black Horse.  There's one hole on Black Horse where the green must be 100 feet above the fairway - at least it seemed like it late in the day.  The property is gorgeous - set in the hills where you get great views of the Pacific.  I thought the courses were interesting and yes, hard.  The trees are imposing, not something we would typically see in the Southeast.  There's no hope of a ball "getting through" - if your ball is headed into the trees, you just hope that it actually comes back down to the ground.  You definitely have to drive it straight, particularly on Bayonet.

It might get to be a grind playing there all the time, but I had a great day there (this opinion is not influenced by the "I played good" factor, because I didn't).  

Andy

[THuckaby2]

Ah, two of my faves.  And one that makes me weep.

I've gone on and on and on about these courses many times in here.  Not to rehash too much, but what makes me weep is how emasculated Bayonet is today, in the name of moving tourists along.  You think it's hard today?  Back in the day there were about twice as many trees, all had branches and underbrush down to the ground, many overhung way out into the fairways.  Oh it was totally "unfair", it left little in the way of strategic choices to be made, but it was the most clear evaluator of one's game that I have ever seen.  Think you're good?  Break 80 from the tips at Bayonet.  It was a brutal, sadistic, horrifying course that I just absolutely loved, because that was its purpose and it made no bones about it.

Now?

Still tough, for sure.  But SO much more playable... OK, for the most part that is a good thing.  But look how Cary came back pooh-poohing it... I can tell ya that never would have happened had he played it prior to say 1990.  Of course even then the emasculating had begun, but at least most of what made it cool was still there.

Now it's a decent course - GREAT drainage, best in all of NorCal I think - pretty fun, still a good test - just not really special in any way.

I still do recommend it to visitors, and I think I have done so for Paul and Brent- and in fact I would recommend it for far more people today than before - before you had better have been a single digit handicap without much ego to enjoy the round.

Oh well....

Blackhorse by the way is quirky to the max and would seem to me to be a poster-course for this group.  And conditions there were resurrected post-military leaving... So as much as Bayonet was emasculated, Blackhorse was saved and improved.  It is a very weird, quirky, very fun course these days.

TH

[Evan Fleisher]

It's after.

The current version of my ever-changing itenerary, which come to think of it hasn't changed a bit in a week or two now, is to arrive at OAK on Friday the 8th and drive out to Stevinson that night.

Sunday evening after the KP-IV and associated Masters-watching is done I'll drive to Seaside/Marina whatever and be there from Sun-Wed nights, departing from OAK on Thursday the 14th. Only Wednesday is firmed up golf-wise although a couple of us had discussed maybe Pasatiempo on Monday, or maybe Tuesday.

I'm basically going to play golf every day and try to squeeze in a couple hours at the aquarium and at least one good dinner down in Carmel. Beyond that it's a TBD.

Brent,

My Monday flight is now out at 3:50pm and I'll be staying Sunday night downtown in SF...was also thinking of a monday round at Pasa...let me know what you end up doing.

I doubt I'll stray too far from San Francisco that day to ensure I can get back to the airport on time for my afternoon flight.

[THuckaby2]

E - be VERY careful if you're going to try to go from SF to play and Pasa and then back to SFO for a 3:50pm flight.  That's a very long way to go.  If you're gonna do it, play EARLY.

All of you also keeo in mind that Pasa reserves times for members only in the am.  They do tend to release them to the general public if the members don't take them, however... but that's typically not done until a day or maybe two before the day you want.  You ought not to bump up against too mucm member play on a Monday morning, but you never know.

Best bet:  call Pasa asap and work this out.  E, they do accomodate raters, from what I've heard... I just don't know specifically how or what's involved.

TH

[Brent Hutto]

Evan,

Paul Thomas and I had considered Monday a likely Pasa day in an earlier conversation. If you can play that morning for my part it's a no-brainer to go ahead and do it then. I really don't want to miss out on a round a Pasa while I'm there.

[THuckaby2]

B - posts crossed - see above - Pasa does limit times to members in the am - call them ASAP and try to work this out.

TH

[Brent Hutto]

Tom,

I'll check with them in detail but their web page indicates on Mondays you can reserve an early-morning tee time a week in advance. Weekends and holidays it's 9:30AM but on weekdays it's 7:00AM. I'd think if we can play by 7:30 or so Evan is in good shape (assuming he's willing to get up and pack in the middle of the night).

[Evan Fleisher]

Getting up early to get down to Pasa for a Monday round is just fine with me...don't want to miss out on the chance either!

Brent...let's talk off-line...I'm going to IM you my number, give me a quick buzz.

[THuckaby2]

Brent:

AHA!  Very cool.  Used to be all weekdays had early times reserved for members... glad to see they've opened this up.  Typically it would work out this way anyway, as that's not exactly a popular time for member play anyway.

So, in my Emily Littela voice, never mind.  

7:30 latest if you want E to have a sane drive back to SFO in time to return his car, check in, go through security and make his flight, btw.  Mother Tomasina's over-cautious traffic advice at your service.  

[Mike_Golden]

If you play Pasa at 7:30 you'll probably finish by 11:45-it's about a 75 minute drive to SFO unless there is an accident on Hwy 17-that easily gets Evan back to SFO by 1:30-2:00, plenty of time to make his flight-SFO's tram makes returning cars much easier than it used to be.

Evan: you might want to consider staying someplace other than SF on Sunday night-it's a long drive from Stevinson Ranch into the city and traffic might be pretty bad-there are plenty of decent hotels in the South Bay that would be more convenient.

[Evan Fleisher]

If you play Pasa at 7:30 you'll probably finish by 11:45-it's about a 75 minute drive to SFO unless there is an accident on Hwy 17-that easily gets Evan back to SFO by 1:30-2:00, plenty of time to make his flight-SFO's tram makes returning cars much easier than it used to be.

Evan: you might want to consider staying someplace other than SF on Sunday night-it's a long drive from Stevinson Ranch into the city and traffic might be pretty bad-there are plenty of decent hotels in the South Bay that would be more convenient.

Thanks for the advice, gang!  I'm staying in dowtown SF because that is where my friend lives, and I have not seen her in about a million years...doubt if I'll stay someplace else just to avoid the travel issues on Monday morning, or Sunday evening for that matter.

She and I may be getting together for dinner Sunday with my cousin (who lives up near Berkeley), so it may be possible to avoid SOME of the Sunday evening traffic issue by letting him choose a restaurant in a more convenient spot.

We have yet to work out all the details...

[Evan Fleisher]

From my friend's house in downtown San Francisco, it is a 70 mile drive down to Pasa...wow!

For some reason, I had it in my mind that Pasa was much closer to the city than that...I may have to make alternate arrangements and stay closer down towards there to make it work for Monday morning...assuming we can get out early.

I will still go up and see my friend and my cousin on Sunday evening, but maybe just drive South that night to find a place to stay and just avoid the evening in town and a VERY early morning drive on Monday.

First things first though...Brent and I need to work on the Pasa tee time, then everything else will cascade from there.

Appreciate all the feedback...could have been a real problem!

If for some reason the Pasa thing does not work out and I do end up staying downtown with my friend...what would be my other choices for a round closer to SF?

[THuckaby2]

E - it's a pretty huge number of square miles that we blanketly call "the Bay Area"  .  And even more cautiously, note that that 70 miles also ain't all interstate, my friend.  Figure 90 minutes at least.  The last part is an extremely well-travelled windy road known as Highway 17.  Either that or you take the scenic route down Highway 1, but that would likely take even longer.  Allow a lot of time, that's the point.

As for courses closer to SF, well it depends... public or private... obviously if you can make them happen, SFGC, Olympic, Lake Merced are all right there... On the public side Harding is worth a play, as is Presidio..maybe even Lincoln Park if you have the proper sense of humor...  and for pure fun the course right near SFO (in the fligh path) is Poplar Creek, which our beloved Gib worked on... There are lots of other choices too....

But if Pasa can be done you ought to do it, drive or no drive.  Just do allow a lot of time, that's all.

TH

ps - another one absolutely worth your time, that you could access as a rater, is Stanford... if Pasa doesn't work, consider that as well.  It's not that far from SF or SFO.

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