[TEPaul]

Johnny Miller (golf announcer supreme ) mentioned a few times during Doral that the greens were almost perfect due to what he referred to as "Inner-seeding" or "inter-seeding" (I guess vs over-seeding).

For you superintendents and agronomists out there---what the hell is "inner-seeding"? Golf agronomy has gotten to be "Weird science" enough---what are we into now---"in vitro" greens?  

[S. Huffstutler]

He meant "interseeding". He also made mention of the "po anna" overseed. It was Poa Trivialis. I wish someone would find something else for Johnny Miller to do, he drives me crazy.

Steve

[ForkaB]

I always thought that "Poa Trivialis" was Tom Paul's nickname in prep school.........

[M._Stovall]

Overseed - To seed onto an existing turf, usually with temporary cool-season turfgrass, to provide green active grass growth during dormancy of the original turf, usually a warm-season turfgrass.

Interseed - To seed into turf to improve a stand or to alter its composition, a more permanent stand.

 

[TEPaul]

Ok, you supers and agronmists, how do you "inter-seed"?

I think it's interesting that JohnnyM brings up stuff like this---a lot more interesting than listening to Renton Laidlaw proclaim constantly stuff like "Johannson is "ON" 2 under par" when anyone with eyes can read the scoreboard on TV just as well as Renton can!  

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

  J.M. is picking these little agronomic gems up during the week from various sources. Once he get one of them stuck in his head, like GRAIN, it keeps coming out during the telecast. Wouldn't it be great if he would bring the host Super on and give him 30 seconds to explain what exactly it is he is talking about. It may even be informative. I think it is great that Johnny acknowledges the agronomic side of things.

   On a side note: I couldn't believe how firm and smooth the sand was in the bunkers. I'll bet the sand save % for the field was one of the highest ever for the week. I really wish bunkers could become hazards again.

[TEPaul]

"I really wish bunkers could become hazards again."

Sean:

So do I and that's precisely what we hope to begin to work toward at my club this year and in the future. The Green Committee was asked to make a moderate budget cut in on-course maintenance this year and cutting down on the frequency of the maintenance crew raking bunkering is going to be one good way to accomplish precisely that. Of course we're going to draft an explanatory letter to the membership that will outline that although this may be primarily due to maintenance cost considerations this is the philosophically correct thing to do on a golf course to attempt to make penal areas (bunkers) play more effectively as penal areas as they are strategically meant to do.

Of course people on here like Patrick Mucci doesn't seem to see the benefit in this---all he advises to do is for us to question the motives and authority of the president of  the club for asking for a moderate budget cut in the first place!  

[Dave_Miller]

Overseed - To seed onto an existing turf, usually with temporary cool-season turfgrass, to provide green active grass growth during dormancy of the original turf, usually a warm-season turfgrass.

Interseed - To seed into turf to improve a stand or to alter its composition, a more permanent stand.

 

Mark:
Does anyone know if Inter-Seeding has been used effectively in the Northeast?
Are there some real benefits to this?

Fairways and Greens,
Dave

[TEPaul]

DaveM:

From now on I'd appreciate it if this term "inter-seeding is no longer used. From now on I'd like to re-name it "in vitro" agronomy! And I'd also appreciate it if someone would pass that along to JohnnyM if he wants to go on and on about this on a telecast again!

[Peter Galea]

Interseeding has very limited success. It is hard, if not immposible to establish new plants into an existing turf canopy. The competition for nutrients, light and water favors the mature plant, opposed to the newly seeded juvenile. This has been my experience in cool season turf.
I'll leave the warm season interseeding and overseeding explanation to someone more knowledgable with the process in those turfs.

[Dave_Miller]

Interseeding has very limited success. It is hard, if not immposible to establish new plants into an existing turf canopy. The competition for nutrients, light and water favors the mature plant, opposed to the newly seeded juvenile. This has been my experience in cool season turf.
I'll leave the warm season interseeding and overseeding explanation to someone more knowledgable with the process in those turfs.

Pete:
Thanks.  That's good information.
Best
Dave

[Don_Mahaffey]

Interseeding...overseeding...Johnny Miller is really clueless when it comes to golf course agronomy, but that sure doesn't stop him from acting like he knows all about it. Interseeding is a term used sometimes in areas that overseed where maybe you don't prep and scalp as much so you leave a little more bermuda and get the poa triv seed "in" between the bermuda as opposed to "over" the bermuda. From someone who has overseeded for over two decades and tried a lot of different methods, I say it's much ado about nothing as in the end it's still throwing cool season grass seed onto warm season turf.

Interseeding is a term used more often in the North where you are trying to establish a different grass, say a newer bent, into an existing turf canopy. As Pete G noted, research has shown it does not work.

[jeffwarne]

It's not just agronomy Miller's clueless about-
The great thing about spewing misinformation is at least it's a fresh and interesting viewpoint-

[M._Stovall]

Dave:
In the Southeast interseeding of bentgrass greens has been done to introduce a improved variety of bentgrass into an older one.  I agree with Pete as to the limited success of this procedure.  As for cool season fairways I could not comment having only experience with bermuda fairways.

[Gary_Mahanay]

I did not hear if they said but were those overseeded greens at Doral the old tif-dwarf or one of the new ultra-dwarfs (tif-eagle, champions, or flora-dwarf) ?  Here in north Texas our tif-eagle greens have been greening up for a couple of weeks now and we sure get colder and stay colder longer than south Florida.  If they have one of the new ultra-dwarfs, I don't see why they can't get away with not overseeding at all.  

[TEPaul]

What's the actual difference in how one does overseeding vs inter-seeding? How you overseed seems pretty obvious but what's the actual method of inter-seeding? The thing about some of you supers and agronomists is you sort of speak your own language compared to us laymen. Do you think that's on purpose?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

In the early 90's  I heard the term used to difuse the opposition to overseeding from memberships.  Overseeding takes golf courses out of play for two, six week periods, one in the fall and one in the spring.  If you get an early burst of warm weather in March-April it can affect the play of the golf courses for the northern snow birds,

Hence, when questioned if they overseeded, some superintendents replied that they interseeded.
Now, do you suppose that any member had a clue as to what that meant ?

What's the difference between a light overseeding and interseeding ?

[jeffwarne]

Patrick,
Overseeding does not take courses "out of play for 2 six week periods"
Perhaps courses in Palm Springs may close for a period of time,but they don't get a lot of play in September anyway(the month many courses overseed in Palm Springs)
When I worked at Long Cove we overseeded with Poa Trivialis (on the greens)and never missed a day.(fine powdery seed)Sure the greens might've been blotchy colored or a bit bermuda thin if we had a rough transition in early summer/late spring,but never "out of play",and usually quite good.
Overseeding with rye(fairways and/or greens) can be a bit messy in the fall,but it rarely takes a course out of play,certainly not more than a few days if so,although wet, long grassy conditions prevail for several weeks until the grass is healthy enough to cut.
It certainly isn't "Two six week periods" that courses are out of play(although perhaps some Palm Springs courses might close that long in the early fall)
12 weeks closed would be economic suicide for any golf course in the southeast.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Warne,

In South Florida there are two lengthy transition periods.

[jeffwarne]

Patrick-lengthy yes,but out of play?
I worked at Doral for 10 years and they overseeded wall to wall one year,and it looked like a bomb went off in April or May,but it was never out of play.
By the way,did Doral overseed(or is it interseed now) wall to wall again this year?it sure looked electric green-for the last few years they didn't overseed anywhere,but the greens were always when they overseeded

[Patrick_Mucci]

I worked at Doral for 10 years and they overseeded wall to wall one year,and it looked like a BOMB went off in April or May,but it was never out of play.

It depends on the expectations and perspective of your membership.

I'd say that a golf course that looks like a BOMB went off would be deemed out of play at most private clubs in south Florida.   Especially for those members who pay considerable initiation fees and dues at their clubs, who fly to Florida to play golf when the weather up home isn't so good.[/color]

[jeffwarne]

Patrick-I might just know a few of those members

[TEPaul]

Don Mahaffey said;

"Interseeding is a term used sometimes in areas that overseed where maybe you don't prep and scalp as much so you leave a little more bermuda and get the poa triv seed "in" between the bermuda as opposed to "over" the bermuda."

Don:

What are the differences in actually doing Inter-seeding compared to overseeding? Do you veriticut or something with Inter-seeding and put the seed into the cuts or something?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tom,
You vertical mow or scarify with either method. I've seen the term interseeding used when a supt would lightly vertical mow, say two directions, then seed and probably topdress. Most likly a growth regulator would also be used to stunt the bermuda. This method would most likly be used in the SE where the cool season growing period is a little shorter then in the SW. Honestly, the terms innerseeding or interseeding don't don't mean a lot to me. It's still overseeding, just maybe done a little different.  

[S. Huffstutler]

Though I don't have nearly as much experience as Don, I will put in my 2 cents worth... When I hear the term "Inteseeding" I think of planting a cool season grass seed deep enough into a cool season canopy to make seed to soil contact in a mostly futile attempt to establish a different strain of grass without killing the existing surface. When I think of "overseeding", (regardless of the method used) I think about planting a cool season grass seed onto an existing warm season canopy, not expecting to make seed to soil contact, but rather to grow the overseed in the thatch layer of the Bermuda and maybe get some roots into the soil in order for the overseed to die when the weather is favorable for Bermuda growth.

With regard to transition periods, I overseed greens without interrupting play, it takes me two days, but we don't lose any rounds. In the Spring, transition can be nasty and lengthy, or you can take the overseed out chemically in a much shorter period and get the Bermuda going again. It is ugly for a little while, but certainly not unplayable.

Steve

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