[T_MacWood]

The death of H.S. Thompson got me thinking...actually I was thinking about the relationship between creativity and drinking the night he took his life, and before it was reported, which is a little eery.

In golf architecture, we've got Alister MacKenzie, AW Tillinghast, Stanley Thompson and few others, whose drinking habits are infamous. There is a romantic quality associated with these hard living icons. And history is full of creative drinkers, drunks, and more recently drug users...Mozart, Churchill,  Hemmingway, Van Gogh, Poe, London, Wilde, Morrison, Cobain, etc, etc.

I don't know how much has been written about this subject, is it known if the booze (or whatever substance) helps release the creativity or are these people creative inspite of the booze? Or is each case different?

Its also been observed that HST writing peaked early, and the last decades his work really didn't compare to those early years. Why?

From my own personal--albeit mortal--experience, if I'm writing after one too many or whatever, I usually have to rewrite it the follow day...although I wonder if an interesting concept or thought may have occured in that altered state, perhaps one that may not have occured under normal circumstances, a concept that will stick with me and be developed more fully....I wish I could remember.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Many of these guys were womanizers too, so I think the key to creativity is more pussy!

"There are more old drunks than there are old doctors so I think I'll have another 'round!"

You forgot one of the highest creative, stoned and drunk minds:  Willie Nelson.

[PThomas]

thanks for starting my day off with a laugh Kelly!

[T_MacWood]

Kelly
All the names are too numerous to mention...relating to Willie Nelson, you've got Bob Marley and his fellow Rastamen, and Rodney Dangerfield who smoked pot every day of his life for something like fifty years.

What is your personal experience, not with womanizing, but designing under the influence?

[Kyle Harris]

Tom,

Probably more for two reasons: Losing your inhibitions while drunk leads to not thinking too much while creating, sure you get a lot of crap, but you get a lot of good too (Jim Morrison, et al).

And drinking to cope. Some of our greatest artists and musicians have lead somewhat traumatic or severe lives... which of course, leads to the poignancy of their work. Maybe they happened to drink to take the edge off of life and became dependent on such a feeling?

[DMoriarty]

Perhaps there is a stronger correllation between drinking, on the one hand, and wasted potential and dying too young, on the other, than there is between drinking and creativity.  

We tend to pay more attention when a creative person dies too early, and the cause of that is too often related to drinking, etc.   That and romantic notions might skew our perspective just a bit.  

This theory would also explain your second observation.   It might be easier to be a creative drunk for a few years than for a full lifetime.  

[Mike Nuzzo]

A free mind has the ability to see many more alternatives -- creativity.
If your mind isn't free, a little booze may make you feel free.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Jesus God Almighty Tom, I came back expecting a paddling for talking blunt, and you ask me that.  I went away laughing, and just stopped!  Very nice.  Well, I hate to say but my drinking does add fuel to creative conversation, but when it comes to designing it is almost entirely sober, I never recall working on a project not sober.  And just to clarify any juiced feelings I get is only alcohol.  I think many of the examples of people given were highly creative and some very productive despite the drug and alcohol influences.  I am not certain if the case can be made that the abuses dramatically elevate meaningful creativity.  I suspect the streets are littered with highly creative people that smothered themselves in abuses and we never heard from them.  I had plenty of friends and a few experiences with them in abusing drugs and alcohol and the scary thing is although some of us pretty quickly outgrew that behavior, a lot of guys didn't and they still suffer from their inability to get away from it, and one never lived beyond high school to see if he could outgrow it, and I think that is the message I have practiced for my young kids, yes we tried these things, yes it is out there, and yes your friends will offer it, but is it really worth the risk of getting hooked and never getting away from it, and crashing and burning.  The real simple joys of creating of experiencing something beautiful, simple but soul stirring, are most meaningful sober, and I think in our business most meaningful in the early dawn, which most drunks rarely see.

I think if you really pursue creativity, if you really plug into the creative mode, then that actually crowds out drugs and alcohol, and other distractions that take away from that obsessive need to create.  I think that more attention should be paid to the compulsive need to think, and create that overtakes some people, DA VINCI, Rembrandt, etc.  In otherwords I think creativity, the need to create, to know and experience beauty is the real and final pursuit of most minds, and for some reason that pursuit has caused them to side track into drugs and alcohol, which I think ultimately hampered a great mind, that if sober, was destined to do much greater things than what they actually created.  Probably the saddest part of those stories is the potential not realized, I think that is what can drive someone to greatness is the recognition that they must keep sober and finetuned in order to not squander the God given ability to create, and the fear of not playing out the full potential you possess within.  The inexcusable diversion from pushing the limits of one's potential is not always the fault of drug and alcohol, but other wordly intrusions that must be avoided as well.


Besides if I pursued the hell bent drinking creative path I would get little done because I tire out, and spend half my time taking a leak.  Just drinking coffee or water on the way through Manhatten gives me great concern.  I drive through Manhatten a lot, and often can be found on the side of the road "inspecting my car" while preparing myself for the possibility of getting stuck in traffic.

[A.G._Crockett]

Creative genius, or any other type of genius, is an unusual, bizarre personality trait that exists in vast excess in a particular individual.  We should never be surprised that the same individual possesses other bizarre traits or behaviors in great excess as well.

DMoriarty is right.  Drinking to excess to excess kills creative people young.  They were already creative.

[Kyle Harris]

KBM,

I'd be worried about the golfer standing on one of your tees going, "What was he smoking?"

Not that I haven't done that or anything...  

[TEPaul]

Some of the most creative people I've heard of and a fairly good number I've known in my life who appeared to have been excessive drinkers (perhaps sometimes) and highly creative (perhaps during those times) may've actually been manic depressive (bipolar?). It seems during those times when they were "above the line" (which may've been some cause of their excessive drinking) their creative potential or limits seems to be beyond belief! A few of those I knew who may not have been enough aware of their condition and did not medicate it properly ended tragically.

[Joe Hancock]

...... a little booze may make you feel free.

Mike,

It might make me feel cheap, but never free. BTW, thank you for not taking advantage of me at the Michigan Room in Orlando. I was feeling rather cheap, after all......

Joe

[peter_p]

You don't see any old drunk creative electricians.

[Steve Lang]

 

nor a lot of old chemists..  seems to many of them washed their hands in benzene..

HTS maybe was just going for the last big thing available to him, he didn't have to prove anything to anyone but himself

i chalk it up to simple ritual, a flask, a j, a chocolate shake, whatever makes you break from reality is the ticket..

like white dopes on punk

[Mike_Cirba]

It's a bit scary to consider that The Beatles had their most creative, imaginative period largely under the mind-altering influence of LSD, further enhanced by constant pot smoking.  However, even if there are short term creative bursts available to us with chemical additives, I think the long term is a bit more dismal.  After all, it wasn't too many years later that John was recording sound effects from inside a bag and Paul was boring us to tears with "Let Em In" and "Silly Love Songs".  Fortunately, they both sort of cleaned up their acts before they met the type of end that Cobain, or Hendrix, or Joplin, or Moon, or Bonham, or quite a few others did.

[Joe Hancock]

Steve,

The culture of this group has no bounds.....

The Tubes, even?......on the Tip of my Tongue.....

Joe

[Mike Hendren]

I can only speak for my ownself.  I have not been intoxicated since before my 15 years-old daughter was born.  Best I remember, however, drinking made me - STUPID!

And across from the bar there's a pile of beer cans
Been there twenty-seven years.
Imagine all the heartaches and tears
In twenty-seven years of beer.
-Jimmy Buffett, from Ringling, Ringling

Mike

[TEPaul]

I think this is actually a most fascinating subject, one that could hold some interesting evidence and perhaps truths, particularly in the area of "art", certainly including golf architecture. The only problem with this thread's subject, in my opinion, is it can always devolve into misunderstanding and diverting humor in a milisecond.

I hope it doesn't!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

You don't see any old drunk creative electricians.

Hey! I caught that!

I've already had my "unemployed fat ass" chewed-out today by klangone. (His words)

(Funny, you would thnk with all of the legal troubles and more or less being pushed off the G.E. Board, he would have better things to do with his time then hang around here and insult everybody....)

[Joe Hancock]

Tom,(Paul)

It's a fine line that seperates crativity and humor, don't you think? Take Desmond, for instance.....

Joe

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Or some crazy "f"-ed up Superintendent who has his staff take pictures of himself riding bareback on a buck around the property.....

What kind of drinking inspired that I ask you? ? ? ?  

[Joe Hancock]

Thats the really scary thing, Tommy. That idea was born of sobriety.

It takes a real mess of a man to use such a picture in a presentation before hundreds of his peers. To gain some redemption here, I did go have some drinks after I (purportedly) did that presentation.

Creativity and drinking....I submit that they can be enjoyed exclusive of each other.

Joe

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Again I ask, "Sober or Not?"

 

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