[Mark_Rowlinson]

It's AT&T time. Spyglass is reckoned to be the hardest course in the tournament, one of the hardest the pros play all year.  But it's RTJ and he doesn't get a good press on this site.  How good is it?  I've never been there.

[THuckaby2]

Mark:

"The Glass" has been discussed MANY MANY MANY times in here.  Do a search and you ought to find hundreds of mentions.

Those who don't like it cite the perceived let-down after the 5th hole, as one moves from the dunes to the forest, among other things.

Those who like it wax poetic about the virtues of the forest holes, among other things.

There, I just saved you hours of research.  

As for me, well... I'm rather a homer for all things NorCal, so I like it a lot... and in fact have come to like it MORE as the years have gone on, and I have seen the virtues of holes 6-18 more and more.

Still, it is a very difficult golf course, not for the faint of heart.  It does tend to wear one down.  But the bottom line for me is that one has to have very high standards indeed to consider it anything less than a great golf course.  Sure, it might pale next to a few of its close neighbors.  But what courses wouldn't?

TH

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mark, I love the course. I do find the par 3's on the back nine to be alittle too much alike. Yet the two on the front are really good holes especially number 5. 4 is one of my favorite green complexes of all time. The stretch after you leave the sea is just one tough hole after another which just beats one down each and every round. It is the only course in the neighborhood that I have not had a good round on. Yet, i look forward to April and the opportunity to fight the beast again.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I love the golf course,
I think it has eveything a good golf course should have.
A tremendous mix of length on the par fours..almost to perfection in my eyes..some great long par fours and wonderful short par fours.
A super mixture of par threes, the pnly down side is that most os the par 5"s...#1 being the exception..play fairly similarly..but they are still good holes in their own right.

I have always thought it does not get the true recognition it deserves, obviosly because of it's proximity to PB AND CPC.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Tom, Thanks a million for saving me having to search through the site - there's SO much there these days.  Good to hear such positive opinions about Spyglass.

[THuckaby2]

Mark:

My pleasure, I aim to serve and to please.  

Just do note also that the course certainly does have its detractors.  The favorers just seem to be more vocal this morning.

TH

[Ted Kramer]

Count me as one who loves the course!
The walk from the first tee, around the bend towards the green is one of the best I've ever experienced.

#4 is absolutely  one of my favorite holes.

-Ted

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Mark,
You have really got me thinking about Spyglass now, as I am in between patients.
It really is a good course, you have to move the ball both ways, it does somewhat favour the longer hitter, but not as much as many of the tour courses do, it is a shotmakers golf course..no wonder it is the hardest to the current breed of tour pro's!!

I mentioned the great variety of par fours, the par three's are equally effective in their variety of length, without resortint to the current trend of 230 yard par threes.

#4 gets mentioned a great deal and deservedly so, a fantastic short par4, with a green complex that is sheer brilliance.

Yes, I guess I am one of those who like the course.
In fact I think the longest would be #5 which my guess would stretch out to barely 200 yards.

[Sean Leary]

Mark,

It is just such a difficult golf course, and absolutely unrelenting. For a 10+ handicap it is just brutal, which could be part of the reason it gets panned a bit.  Low handicappers like Michael W-P often like it paryly because it is so difficult.  It (like Pasatiempo) plays much longer than the yardade, due to soft conditions and a number of uphill second shots.

The best I have ever played was a round at Spyglass, and as a 4 handicapper, I shot 77 from the 6500 yard tees. The next day I played crappy and shot the same score from the back tees at Pebble.  Enough said.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Very fair comment from Sean, it is very tough, but I am not  long hitter at all, so as I said earlier it is not just a long hitters golf course...but I can see how the high handicap players 18+ would not like it at all.....unless the just appreciated good architecture.

[A_Clay_Man]

I was dreaming of Spy last night. It was about the routing. I wondered if the original intent was to play it in reverse configuration. Then the seventh would be the breather before the climax.

As for it's greatness, to me, lies in it's greens and the lay of the land.

The greens are so deceptive and speed is so crucial, knowing is only half the battle.

[PThomas]

I too have never played it, yet reading this and past threads (as a good newbie must! makes me wonder how badly I should want to play it, especially since it's about $250. ..
the discussions on Spyglass seem pretty polarizing, as does the course as it moves away from the dunes after hole 6, I believe

[THuckaby2]

Paul:  "greatness" and "worth $250" are two separate and distinct evaluations.

Fortunately I've never had to pay that kinda money to play there, so it's easy for me to sit here and say it's great.  Would I do so today?  No way.  But if I had never played it ever, well... I kinda look at it like Pebble - one does what one has to do to play these great courses.  So maybe it is worth it - ONCE.

Adam:

All I've ever heard about the routing was they had to put the clubhouse where it is, the current 18 was going to return to that, and they didn't want the LONG walk from 18 to 1 to be 1 to 10, for flow reasons.  Having played it in that configuration, I am here to tell you it is great fun... but it does suffer from flowus interruptus due to that long walk/ride, past 10 tee, 9 green, across the road, past the pro shop, to 1 tee - at least compared to how beautifully it flows as is.

TH

[Sean Leary]

Paul,

After 5 it does change, not only due to the change in topography, also because the first 5 is probably the easier stretch on the course. The forest holes are more difficult, in my opinion.

MWP,

I wasn't implying that you were long, or that you have to be long to play well there.  I was just saying, if you look at the scorecard and see 6500 yards, it actually plays longer that is all.  Pasatiempo is the same way.

[Pete Lavallee]

Although no one will dispute that the first 5 holes through the dunes are great, the forest holes simply do not match up. Every other course in the area has great forest holes; even Spanish Bay. RTJ's quest for hard par, easy bogey, may excite elite ball strikers, but golf should present a more balanced challange, with interest replacing difficulty. Prove me wrong, what is the most architecturally interesting hole from 6-18; and tell me why?

[A_Clay_Man]

Huck, Good comment on the current flow. I don't think that the interuptus is all that bad in reverse. For one, it's all downhill. Also, golfing the better holes, 1-5 later in the round, seems like such a treat, worthy of the suspension of disbelief and the anticipation while golfing the forest first.

Other positives to the re-route would be the stronger finish with #'s 8 and 9.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pete, there are merits to those holes 6-18. Just not in the same league, as the first five. The original 16th had the shot testers of shot testers, but NLE. The eight is one of the courses strongest holes. The tenth is as good and as deceptive, as any tree filled hole I have golfed.

I could spell out the subtle challenges for each, but I'll stick with my original comment regarding the land and the greens.

IM me and I'll debate it with you privately. If you'd like.

[THuckaby2]

Adam:

That makes sense.  As I say, it was very fun to play it that way, for exactly the reasons you state.

BUT... it just seems so "weird", you know?  I mean there the current #1 tee is right next to the pro shop... and there the current 9-10-18 are, right next to the clubhouse... In terms of excitement and flow fun, heck yes it works wonderfully in reverse of how it is now.  But in terms of practicality, well... I can't fault them for leaving it as is.

TH

[PThomas]

Tom -- I agree that even at 250   it's probably one that should be done at least once

for those who have played:  if both courses charged the same amount to play and you could only play one, which would it be:  the Glass or Pasa?   I'm guessing all/most will say the latter...

[THuckaby2]

Paul:

This might be the first and only time I'm a contrarian....

But put me down for Spyglass.  And I absolutely love Pasa, as much as I do criticize it at times.  There's just something about the Glass that Pasa will never have.... and that something is proximity to the ocean, being inside the 17 Mile Drive, being the site of the AT&T.  Now obviously none of that has anything to do with "architecture", but man does surely not live by architecture alone.

Thankfully no one has to make this choice, as Pasa is about 1/2 the cost of Spyglass.

TH

[PThomas]

Tom -- I know what you mean by the lure of the ocean -- I hope I can live by it someday! -- and by other things than the course itself -- I think of Blackwolf Run and the GREAT log cabin clubhouse up on the hill, where you can eat and drink overlooking the 18th holes of the River and Valley courses

reminds me of the time I was up there with the family...as I was coming up 18 on the River one of my daughters -- they and my wife were eating breakfast on an outside table of the clubhouse, how cool is that -- one of my daughters yelled out "Hi Daddy!"...one of my greatest golf memories

[THuckaby2]

Tom -- I know what you mean by the lure of the ocean -- I hope I can live by it someday! -- and by other things than the course itself -- I think of Blackwolf Run and the GREAT log cabin clubhouse up on the hill, where you can eat and drink overlooking the 18th holes of the River and Valley courses

reminds me of the time I was up there with the family...as I was coming up 18 on the River one of my daughters -- they and my wife were eating breakfast on an outside table of the clubhouse, how cool is that -- one of my daughters yelled out "Hi Daddy!"...one of my greatest golf memories

You got it, my friend.  There is WAY more involved in evaluating a golf course than "architecture in a vacuum", as I have called it before.  I keep trying to explain that to people here, but you seem to be one of very few who has gotten it.  Now be careful... association with me leads only to ruin in this group....

 

[PThomas]

and if I remember past threads correctly, Tom, I expect a certain fellow CHicagoan to join this discussion and violently disagree with your choice of Glass over Pasa....

[THuckaby2]

and if I remember past threads correctly, Tom, I expect a certain fellow CHicagoan to join this discussion and violently disagree with your choice of Glass over Pasa....

Well yes, he ought to.  He also at one time favored Pasa over Pebble as well and all Monterey area courses save Cypress... and he was even wavoring about that last choice.

But he has softened over time.  Last I heard his love for Pasa had waned a little.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I love it also.  Make this choice between Pasa and basically every other NorCal course outside of those inside the 17 Mile drive and I'm gonna choose Pasa.  But that's not what you asked.

 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Sean, I was not implying that you were implying..now thats confusing.....that I aws long, I just wanted those who have not played the course to realise that brute length is not what this course is all about.

Pete L.
I will go along with Adam and if you really do not see any architectural value in any of the holes after 6 we must do it by IM..because we have some serious issues.

I will have to choose Spyglass over Pasa as well..however in it's original form before all of the houses etc..I may think differently.

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