[SPDB]

For someone whose impact on golf architecture is so deep, little is ever discussed here about the quality of his actual work.

But the discussion on the Ballybunion thread about the Cashen course and Jeff's recent thread on Peachtree got me thinking - what is RTJ's best design? (Please no snide remarks a la "Oakland Hills" or "Baltusrol" - let's deal only in original work).

So what say you? Is it Spyglass? Point O'Woods? Peachtree? Mauna Kea? Hazeltine?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Since Phil Mick shot 59 today on Poipu Bay, we can eliminate that one.

I have played a bunch of RTJ, but not too many of his big name courses. I have only played Spyglass on your list, so it wins by default, but I will never understand why he put such great holes so early.

I would like to see pictures of Montauk Downs when it opened (the second time with RTJ, and before the State took it over. There is some great terrain out there and some very nice holes. 10 rounds at Spyglass vs Montauk is 7 to 3 for me in favor of Spyglass.

Never played but would like to see The Dunes in Myrtle Beach.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Excellent question.

I'm a "well known" admirer of the works of the Golden Age architects (Ran Morrissett has accused me of never having seen a course built after 1935!), and have admittedly slighted some of RTJ's redesign work over the years.

However, I've become more and more interested in RTJ's original golf course designs, which, like the works of his predecessors, have been changed thru natural evolution and redesign.  

(I don't think I've played an original RTJ course yet.)

I was recently looking at photos of the 1951 US Open at Oakland Hills, for example. RTJ's Oakland Hills looks dramatically different than the Oakland Hills of today. It was much more rugged, for one. The bunkers, in particular, were very attractive, featuring the type of rugged styling that would be praised today at a new course designed by the likes of Doak, Hanse, or Coore.

Staunch traditionalists have called for restoration of Ross' original design at Oakland Hills. Well, considering RTJ's Oakland Hills is about 19 years older than Ross' original design lasted, perhaps a restoration to 1951 is in order. It'd be an improvement at Oakland Hills today. I know that for sure.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff,

Trent Jones "restored" that look to Oakland Hills a couple of years before the Open in 1985 ... that was the first time I saw it.  But those ragged edges don't last long when you're edging them once a month.

[Mike_Young]

Spyglass,Point-o-woods,Heather

[SPDB]

The problem I've always had with RTJ course is that they are so mindless. There is little I've found in his architecture that is really thought provoking.

One theory that could be drawn is that the innovative design features employed by RTJ (e.g. Par 3 carry over manufactured pond) may have been exciting at the time (and likely thought provoking). But as RTJ's popularity grew these features became ubiquitous and ceased to really be distinctive examples of RTJ and, more importantly, were no longer thought provoking.

What's the quirkiest thing you've seen on an RTJ course? I can't, for the life of me, recall a single example.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Exactly, Tom D.

I toured Oakland Hills with Neal Meagher a few months ago and we were both shocked at the appearance of the bunkers. Particularly when compared to some '51 photos.  

[Ken Fry]

There are a nice collection of holes in the original 18 at Otter Creek in Columbus, IN.  Nice use of terrain and some interesting bunkering/green complexes.

The original 18 at Stone Mountain State Park outside of Atlanta was a very good course.  Unfortunately the original course has been split up.

The front nine of Green Lakes Golf Course outside of Syracuse, NY is a really fun original work.

None of these courses are mentioned in the same breath as Peachtree, Spyglass or Bellerive but are good examples of Trent Jones Sr.'s work.

How much of RTJ's original work still exists within Atlanta Athletic Club?

[Chris_Blakely]

Marine Park GC Brooklyn, NY

[Andy Doyle]

The original RTJ 18 at Stone Mountain outside of Atlanta - Stonemont - was reunited in 2000 when the administration of the state park was privatized and Marriott was brought in to run the conference center and the golf course.  I'm pretty new to the intricacies architectural design, so I don't know to what extent they altered or restored RTJ design elements, but I do know they certainly upgraded course conditioning.

If you want quirk - take a look at #9 on Stonemont.  It's a 378 yard par 4, 90 degree dogleg right.  Fairway tilts left-to-right, then plunges downhill.  Green is at least 60 feet back uphill with a deep bunker across the front.

You can hit driver, but this requires a strong cut, a blind shot around the corner to the bottom of the hill.  If hit correctly, you have a short iron (8 or 9), but it's an uphill shot to a blind green over a deep bunker.  If you cut it too much, you're in the woods, and if you don't cut it enough you hit it through the fairway into the woods.

You can try to lay up off the tee, but the farther left you go, the longer iron you will have across the deep gully and over the front bunker to the green.  The more to the middle or right off the tee you play, the more you risk the ball rolling down the hill, leaving you a nasty downhill lie for a shot to an uphill green.

It's more than enough quirk for me - I still have no idea how to play this hole.

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[Brad Klein]

Peachtree is much under-appreciated. Great rolling piece of land, a lot of interesting interior slope on the par-4s, and while the approaches tend to be uphill it's a great driving course. The par-5 2nd is still the best alternate route/optional route par-5 RTJ ever did. The way it was inspired and partially emulates Augusta National is clear on many holes. I didn't get it the first time I saw it but I was really impressed after a round there last year.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I've played quite few RTJ courses and tend to find some awesome holes on just about every course.  Unfortuntely, there usually are some terrible holes as well.  His early works in metro-NY are interesting because he did not have the budgets to move massive amounts of dirt like his later courses.  The original RTJ 16th at Augusta is to be found at Patterson Club--a truely awesome hole--this is followed by a stupid par 5 that requires a harder layup shot than a go at the green--I'd hate to be an 18hdc playing this hole. With some serious tree cutting, Fairview should be considered an excellent course.  Patterson is really good.  Valencia is very unnatural looking, but involves strategy and risk/reward.

[BCrosby]

This thread constitutes a good working definition of "faint praise".

When you consider that RTJ dominated golf course design for about 50 years, there are remarkably few good things to say about his work.

I always worry that it's a bit harsh to call the RTJ era the "Dark Ages".

But maybe not.

Bob

[Lou_Duran]

The sister course to Valderama, Sotogrande, is/was a very enjoyable course (though redanman may wish to carry a chain saw in his bag).  So is/was Las Brisas.

How about the Dunes in Myrtle Beach?

[Jeff_Mingay]

I've not been there yet, but I'm interested in hearing about The Dunes in Myrtle Beach as well.

Brad K.? Have you seen it?

It's been stated that The Dunes was also an early, "revolutionary" design by RTJ.

[jim_lewis]

I have played several RTJ courses that I consider to be quite good. They include:

Peachtree
Eugene CC
The Dunes
Spyglass
Bellerive
Old Warson
Port Royal (Bermuda)
Greenville CC (Chanticleer)
Meedeconk

Others that are a notch below in my view include:
Atlanta Athletic club (both courses)
Pauma Valley
Tanglewood
Golden Horseshoe

I don't know how many of these would be considered "revolutionary", but it would be a mistake to dismiss RTJ as an important architect.

[Jonathan Cummings]

RTJ International Course at Lake Manassas, home of the President's Cup, is another quality Trent Jones effort.

Start Spyglass at hole #7 making the course finish with the ocean series and you would have the best of the courses Jones did.

JC

[SPDB]

Bob - I don't know that i'm necessarily even praising RTJ (faintly or otherwise), in part because of I'm not sure what it is that is praiseworthy. My previous post suggested that there was probably a point where RTJ's designs were eminently praiseworthy and innovative, but that his designs now seem homogenized.

On a website with numerous profiles of designs by the game's greats, the representation of Robert Trent Jones is equal to Alex Findlay, Ralph Plummer and Ed Seay. Notably, Bob Harrison (Norman's designer), has twice as many profiles. Now I'm not saying that the golf course architecture predilections of Ran Morrissett is the acid test, but is it time to reconsider the impact of RTJ?  

Why is it that repetition of Biarritz holes is exciting, while repetition of par 3s over water is nauseating? Certainly, among the two, the latter was the more innovative design when it is first appeared. What gives?

[Ken Fry]

Andy Doyle,

Stone Mountain began with what was latter known as the Stonemont Nine and the Woodmont Nine.  This constituted the original RTJ course.  The Lakemont Nine was added later to accomodate more golfers.

From there, the park took the Woodmont Course and Lakemont Course to make one 18 hole course, then added holes onto the Stonemont Course to make it a complete 18.  If memory serves, holes 1-5 stayed as is, holes 6-9 became holes 15-18, and a new nine was pushed to the west of the course.  The new holes were awful.  If something has been done to get rid of them and restore the ORIGINAL course, then kudos to Marriot.

Like many comments, this course represented a lot of RTJ Sr.'s work.  The original 18 had some outstanding holes, many very good holes and some that were just OK.  I never felt any of the holes he designed (unless later altered) on any of his courses we ever bad.

I've played about 8 courses of his from New York to Georgia to Michigan.  He fathered some ideals that some on this sight may not agree with ("Championship Course," varying the length of holes with his infamous "runway" tees to accomodate golfers of various levels and massive green sizes).  Like his work or not, RTJ has made a huge contribution to how professional architects are viewed today.

[Andy Doyle]

KFry:

That's right - I forgot about the second 9 being called Woodmont.  Marriott did indeed put Stonemont and Woodmont back together.  I don't know for sure, but I believe they restored 15-18 as 6-9 on Stonemont.  What I remember as the finishing hole when I first played Stonemont (pre-2000) is now #9.

It's great for the original RTJ course - not so great for Lakemont.  When you make the turn on Lakemont, you now have a drive in the cart of nearly a mile to connect to those holes that were added to Stonemont to make a complete 18.  I never really cared for Lakemont, even less so now - I almost never play it.

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[Mike_Sweeney]

What's the quirkiest thing you've seen on an RTJ course? I can't, for the life of me, recall a single example.

Maybe the 4th (?) green at Spyglass that feeds into a narrow green at an angle surrounded by iceplant. The 11th green at Cornell is kind of funky too as it sits in a narrow passage way in the tress after a tee shot in an open area. The green is very different if I remember. My assumption has always been that the "hard par easy bogey" concept was to remove the randomness of golf that is found on the older courses. He had the machinery to do it, and they did.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

The problem I've always had with RTJ course is that they are so mindless.

Like the above quote ?[/color]

There is little I've found in his architecture that is really thought provoking.

Have you ever played Spyglass ?[/color]

[HamiltonBHearst]

SPDB

Where do you rate Spyglass Hill?  Clearly better than any Seay,Findlay course isn't it?  

[SPDB]

Pat -
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your doppelganger HBH, too.
Yes, I've played Spyglass Hill, and there are parts of it I liked very much. In fact, thinking of it made me pause in being so categorical. But to my mind, Spyglass is anomalous in the RTJ catalog.

Please try and stick to the thread. If you'd like to criticize me or my opinions, please feel free to start your own thread.

[A_Clay_Man]

I know there's some quirk at LaGuna Seca. But I also know RTJ practically begged to get the Spyglass gig.

As for Spy, there's more quirk than just #4 green. The shelf, left on 14 green, ain't seen too often.

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