[Brian_Gracely]

#9 or 10 at Pebble vs. #4 at Pacific Dunes

#16 at CPC or #9 at Yale

#13 at ANGC or #17 at TOC

#5 at Cuscowilla or #3 at Rustic Canyon

#10 at Riveria or #4 at Spyglass

#8 at Royal Troon or #10 at Pine Valley

#9 at RCD or #16 at Pasatiempo

#5 at Pinehurst(2) or #18 at Shinnecock



 

[Michael Moore]

I don't understand this question -
 
"#9 or 10 at Pebble vs. #4 at Pacific Dunes "

Should we rate them from one to three?
 

[GeoffreyC]

#9 or 10 at Pebble vs. #4 at Pacific Dunes

#16 at CPC or #9 at Yale

#13 at ANGC or #17 at TOC

#5 at Cuscowilla or #3 at Rustic Canyon

#10 at Riveria or #4 at Spyglass

#8 at Royal Troon or #10 at Pine Valley

#9 at RCD or #16 at Pasatiempo

#5 at Pinehurst(2) or #18 at Shinnecock



 

Brian - I prefer links golf and wind-influenced sites and that would color my choices.  Among those I've seen and/or played

4 at Pac Dunes offers more variety of playing options

I'll take the biarritz at Fishers Island (#5) over either choice you gave including my home #9 at Yale

13 at AGNC and 17 at TOC are both equally great but I'll take TOC #17 because the current greensite at ANGC 13 looks artificial on stilts since Nicklaus raised the whole green years ago.  That detracts greatly in my opinion.

#10 at Riviera even though #4 at Spyglass is my favorite hole on that course.  10 at Riv is the poster child of what you can do with a relatively featureless landform to create a great hole.

#8 at Troon is a great great hole and has more varied playing conditions then #10 at PV

#18 at Shinnecock Hills in a landslide.  More varied conditions of play at the new Penn G2 (?) greens at #2 are plain goofy.

[THuckaby2]

I too can only answer on those where I've played both:

#9 or 10 at Pebble vs. #4 at Pacific Dunes
either Pebble hole - they have angles, #4 PD is straight.  All are great holes but the PB ones are better.

#16 at CPC or #9 at Yale
not even close.  There is only one greatest par 3 on the planet and as much as I love Geoffrey Childs, well... it ain't the one in Connecticut.

#13 at ANGC or #17 at TOC
damn I wish I could answer.

#5 at Cuscowilla or #3 at Rustic Canyon
5 Cuscowilla - more pronounced, dramatic options, better green.[bi]

#10 at Riveria or #4 at Spyglass
this will likely get me crucified but I'm gonna go with #4 Spyglass.  It's just more dramatic.  #10 Riv is a paragon of strategy, true.  But #4 Spyglass is more fun to play, and prettier.


#8 at Royal Troon or #10 at Pine Valley
again, I wish....

#9 at RCD or #16 at Pasatiempo
#9 RCD.  I don't find 16 Pasa to be in the top 3 par 4's on the golf course... I like 10, 11 and 14 better, maybe even 2

#5 at Pinehurst(2) or #18 at Shinnecock
on this one the wish is re the less obvious one...I've yet to play Pinehurst


 

[THuckaby2]

GC:

You really think 4PD gives more playing options than 9/10 PB?  I don't get that... 4PD is an arrow-straight hole that you just blast down the middle... avoid going right... all other choices would be just dictated by wind.

But it's been awhile since I've played any of these... so educate me, oh great one.

TH
ps - as you see I kept you in mind re the choice between Yale 9 and CPC 16.  Sorry man but I am sincere in that.  

[Jay Cox]

Answering only the two where I've played both...

#9 or 10 at Pebble vs. #4 at Pacific Dunes
#4 PD: I actually think there are more interesting angles there than at either PB hole.  There's more of an incentive to hit it close to the ocean:  I think the approach at Pebble #9 is harder on average than the approach to PD #4, but I think there's a greater difference in how hard the approach is based on how well placed the tee shot is at PD.  And I never saw THAT much strategy in PB #10 -- although I still think it's a great hole.

How would people rank the following Par 4s:
Pebble 8, 9, 10
Pacific 4, 13
Bandon 4, 5

#16 at CPC or #9 at Yale
I haven't played CPC...and I love the 9th at Yale...but I can't imagine this is that close, especially as long as they hardly ever put the pin on the back half of the green at Yale.  


#10 at Riveria or #4 at Spyglass
Riviera, no contest.  I think the Spyglass hole is interesting but looks manufactured, and Riviera does more to tempt you to do something stupid off (like aim too far right with too much club) off the tee.




 

[blasbe1]

The only two being compared that I've played:

I prefer # 4 at Pacific to anything at Pebble.

[THuckaby2]

Andy:

OK, I must be missing something big time.  What angles are involved in playing #4PD?

As for 4Spyglass v. 10Riv, well... you'll be in the majority there.  I just find 4Spyglass' green to be so wacky and weird and fun that that's the one hole I really look forward to playing every time I do, and I do get down there once or twice a year.  I haven't played Riv in over 20 years, so I am likely way out of touch.

As for ranking those par 4s, I'd go:

Pebble 8,
Pebble 9
Bandon 5
Pebble 10
Pacific 13
Bandon 4
Pacific 4

Allow me to throw in Pacific 6 or 16 and then we have something... I like those better than 4 or 13.  But I guess we're just comparing holes right on the ocean or going at it?

TH

[THuckaby2]

The only two being compared that I've played:

I prefer # 4 at Pacific to anything at Pebble.

Oh man, I am dying.  I like 4Pacific, but my friends, what the heck am I missing?  I don't even put it in the top 6 holes on that golf course.  Better than anything at Pebble?  That to me seems laughable.  I seriously must be thinking of the wrong golf hole.  Arrow-straight with ocean on the right, correct?

TH

[blasbe1]

The only two being compared that I've played:

I prefer # 4 at Pacific to anything at Pebble.

Oh man, I am dying.  I like 4Pacific, but my friends, what the heck am I missing?  I don't even put it in the top 6 holes on that golf course.  Better than anything at Pebble?  That to me seems laughable.  I seriously must be thinking of the wrong golf hole.  Arrow-straight with ocean on the right, correct?

TH

Tom, one of us clearly is thinking of the wrong hole:

as I recall #4 tee sets you up left, straight at the bail out area way left side of the fairway, or as I found out the nasty fairway bunker out there . . . from there the approach is way longer and at an angle, plus into the wind tough to reach.  The tighter angle off the tee, hugging the coast line right, leaves a much shorter approach playing straight into the mouth of the green.

Take my better than anything at Pebble comment in context, I think Pebble is the greatest course one could imagine with a $5M elephant statute off of a par 3, but PD is my favorite course played to date.

[Jay Cox]

Tom:
For me, the dune / bunker short left of the green at PD #4 creates interest for the entire hole.  Unless you can hit further than I can, you have a very hard shot to the green if you hit it out away from the ocean on the tee shot, because you have to land it just over that bunker semi-blind with a long iron and then make it hold.  If you can keep the tee ball right there's plenty of room to hit a running shot onto the green.

I also played the hole with a fairly short hitter who played it as a three shotter, and was impressed by how much the fairway bunker complex and the same dune bunker by the green did to make it an interesting hole played that way.

In my par 4 list, I tried to stick to long par 4s, since I tend to think comparing long and short par 4s is comparing apples and oranges.  From that list, I'd rank them:

8 Pebble
4 Pacific
4 Bandon
9 Pebble
5 Bandon
10 Pebble
13 Pacific (actually one of my least favorite on the course, not that I didn't like it...)

[blasbe1]

elephant statute

Now I know I've been practicing law too long

[THuckaby2]

JB:

I think we're both thinking of the same hole, we're just thinking of it differently.  To me it was just blast away and avoid going right, with that left bunker just existing to scare the timid.  Then the 2nd shot is straight away, with nothing in the way.

Hell I do like the golf hole.  I once played it driver-putter from the 440 or whatever tees and that remains one of my fondest golf stories (yes, it was seriously down-hurricane).  But better than Pebble?  Jeez no matter what I can't get it to that level.

To each his own in any case.  I could give a rat's ass what was paid by whom and to whom to make golf holes at Pebble, I'm just a golfer happy to play them.  And to that end I like the new #5 better than the silly dogleg out of place old #5.  And I like any of the ocean holes there better than their counterparts at PD.

But like I say, to each his own!  I shall be back up at Bandon next spring and perhaps I will see the light.

 

TH

[THuckaby2]

Tom:
For me, the dune / bunker short left of the green at PD #4 creates interest for the entire hole.  Unless you can hit further than I can, you have a very hard shot to the green if you hit it out away from the ocean on the tee shot, because you have to land it just over that bunker semi-blind with a long iron and then make it hold.  If you can keep the tee ball right there's plenty of room to hit a running shot onto the green.

I also played the hole with a fairly short hitter who played it as a three shotter, and was impressed by how much the fairway bunker complex and the same dune bunker by the green did to make it an interesting hole played that way.

In my par 4 list, I tried to stick to long par 4s, since I tend to think comparing long and short par 4s is comparing apples and oranges.  From that list, I'd rank them:

8 Pebble
4 Pacific
4 Bandon
9 Pebble
5 Bandon
10 Pebble
13 Pacific (actually one of my least favorite on the course, not that I didn't like it...)

Jay - OK, that's cool, but see my post to Jayson... I don't get all that much interest out of the golf hole (relative to the PB holes) myself.  And I am FAR from a long hitter as many here know.  To me it's just avoid going right on both shots... and you can run the 2nd in from anywhere... yes if your tee shot goes left, you may have to be extra-cautious about going too far right, and may have to lay up short of the green for this... but that makes it a great golf hole better than the two at Pebble?  Now that I don't get.  But like I said to Jayson, to each his own....

TH

[blasbe1]

The Dunes Tom, see the Dunes

Seriously, I was underwhelmed by Pebble, besides the obivious history plus and I was suprisingly impressed by #4, a hole I had heard little about before playing.  

My recap:

1 and 2 are a snooze;

3, 4 and 5 are very solid;

6 - 10 are world class;

11 - 15 seem like they belong somewhere else;

16 is very solid;

17 is a world class disappointment;

and 18 is world class except for all the eyesores to the right off the tee.  

Last thought about Pebble was that after 3 rounds, 4 nights in the Still Water Cove Suite (yes, sipping cocktails at sunset with my recent bride overlooking the 18th hole) I'll go back every ten years (we plan to relive the honeymoon every 10th anniversary) but would much prefer heading to Bandon the 9 years in between.  Plus with the money we'll save we can send the kids to college, literally!!  

[THuckaby2]

Jayson:

You are not alone in being underwhelmed by Pebble.  Happens all the time.

Try playing it with your father on an empty course in 3.5 hours, not trying at all to go fast.  That kinda deepens one's appreciation.

As for the golf holes, I'd put it more like this:

1 - solid beginner, ass-tightening tee-shot on a par with the world's greats given all the tourists watching

2 - no big deal, but better know that it's been re-done

3-4 severely underrated, both great golf holes

5 - pretty darn cool now

6-7-8-9-10:  all absolutely world-class

11 - damn fine hole also, figures Goodale would point this out

12-13:  no great shakes but certainly not BAD

14 - remains one of the world's great true 3-shotters

15 - incredibly cool green

16 - ditto

17 - only disappointing if you have unrealistic expectations... I like the shot myself.. and when I inevitably miss the green, the 2nd is always a tickler... and it's damn fun to imitate Watson...

18 - world-class, who the hell cares what's on the right, and I don't call those eyesores.. jeez you have high standards.  

So hey, we're not that far off.

Another fair disclosure here is that I have played PB I think 10 times now and have never paid full price.  So I guess my view is rather skewed.

I am paying full price at Bandone next spring and did so on my previous trip.

TH

[blasbe1]

We are close, especially on 3 & 4.  Maybe I didn't find 1 that interesting b/c I hit 2 iron off the tee each time.  Figured with 2 iron I was certain to make contact and unlikely to hit the lodge rooms on the right side.  I actually eagled #2 (holed out a wedge from 110) and stood on 3 tee 2 under.  I nearly had a nervous breakdown being two under at Pebble and immediately snapped a   3 iron into the junk left.  Worst part is I lost the ball I eagled 2 with, and, while I had an awesome caddie, the only bad call he made in 4 days was telling me to keep playing the ball for good luck.

Interestingly, I thought more of Pebble before my trip to Bandon, and then when I realized you can't see a man made object besides the clubhouses, it hit me how unique Bandon is and how much the houses do impact Pebble.

BTW, no "y."

Cheers,

Jason      

[Joe Perches]

#5 at Cuscowilla or #3 at Rustic Canyon

Hmm, tough choice.  The visual at RC may be slightly better except for the road left.  The green is in view, the hole is perhaps a bit more drivable, the landing area near the green a bit more forgiving.  The fairway splitting waste bunkers seem much more a challenge for first time players than it really is.  The deathly bunker long left of the green can have a big impact on approaches from the right side and it's completely hidden.  Cuscowilla's left side approach really isn't visible for the 1st time player and there doesn't seem to be much trouble in the green surrounds.  #5 does have better surface contours.

Either can be a simple 4.

I like both.

[THuckaby2]

Jason:  sorry about the spelling... god knows what goes through my brain.  

In any case, you do make a good point about the houses around Pebble v. the lack of such at Bandon... that is a plus for Bandon for sure... but to me that is trumped by the better views looking outward from the ocean holes at Pebble.  Somehow those cliffs going in and out of bays and the fact you can see other holes on them inspire me more than the straight one cliff at Bandon.  Of course Pebble also has it all over Bandon in terms of "playing in the footsteps of one's heroes - major championships held"... but few besides me think that counts, so I guess I have to leave it out.  Only I don't.  

Your caddie made a questionable call, btw.  One has lots of golf balls.. but only one that participated in an eagle at Pebble.  

Joe:  I like both 5 Cusc and 3 RC also... but to me the more dramatic choices and far superior green at 5 Cusc win the day.  Note I assume playing middle tees at each, to make the green truly driveable sans tail wind.  5 Cusc from the back tees kinda eliminates going straight at the green or even left... and from there, I'd give the nod to 3 RC.  But open up all the choices, and to me 5 Cusc wins... man I have seen VERY few greens so hard to hit from so close in for people not named Lou Duran as that one.

TH

[Andy Hodson]

Tom

I tend to agree with you about PacD #4. While a wonderful hole, and damn hard into a 30mph gale, it does not have the strategy of #6 (top five par 4s I've played), nor the beauty of #13 (the fairway bunkering there is breathtaking). And #4 Bandon is simply a great hole.

Between the two courses there, there are several par 4s I think are better (more exciting, more strategic, etc.) than #4Pac. I think #7Pac is excellent. And I also really enjoyed #17Bandon, one that is not talked about much.

Never played Pebble, but if the question is "Which hole would you rather play #9 Pebble or #4Pacific?" I'll go with Pebble.

[THuckaby2]

Andy:

I couldn't possibly have said that as well myself - I absolutely agree with every word you write.  And again, it's nothing against #4 at PD... it's just being compared to some pretty fantastic golf holes at Pebble.

BTW, I really think #6 at PD is on the absolute short list of greatest par 4's I have ever played anywhere.  Of course being a short hole it's apples and oranges comparing to these long brutes... but good lord is that a great hole.. I could play that hole all day and never tire of it.

In fact, taking this farther.. if the question is which would I rather play between #6 PD and 9 or 10 Pebble, I'm gonna have to think long and hard and maybe it's only the "tradition" factor and the fact Pebble is so near and dear to me that makes me want to lean that way... take those away, base in on pure playing of golf shots, and I'm gonna go with #6 PD.

Now make the comparison against #8 Pebble... and well that's not a fair fight... talk about on the short list of greatest par 4's world-wide....

Just rambling on a screwaround day.  Don't mind me.

TH

[Andy Hodson]

TH
Not to threadjack, well maybe just a little

In three times playing #6, never once played it well. Maybe the first time (wedge from fairway bunker to about 10', but that was because I didn't know any better). That freakin' greenside bunker made me play terrible tee shots too far right off the tee. And there is a huge field of fairway to the left. Great hole.

Back to your regularly schedule programming.

[THuckaby2]

Andy:

Threadjacker is my middle name.  

You and me both bruthah re #6.  I've yet to play it well either.  It is MINE come next summer.  I want a piece of that little bad boy.

In any case what makes it great is exactly what you say... that entire field to the left, yet tee-shots still go too far right.  Of course what makes it this way is the fact that the shot from the left is pretty freakin' terrifying... you have one of the planet's hugest and greatest bunkers to hit over, with seemingly - and realistically - no green on which to hold the ball.  I've had that shot and lemme tell ya having had it once, it makes the next playing steer the tee shot even MORE right.

Then what's also cool is even if one succeeds in a good tee shot, the approach remains no bargain... all due to the very narrow green....

If anything though the holes aren't really similar in look, the greens are... this one and #5 Cuscowilla... Bringing this back on topic, that might be a tougher challenge in terms of comparison... 5 Cuscowilla v. 6 PD... and in that epic battle I'm gonna head to Oregon....

TH

[ian]

#9 or 10 at Pebble vs. #4 at Pacific Dunes
Pebble, but that's not a knock on Pacific Dunes

#16 at CPC or #9 at Yale
#16 at Cypress wins against any hole doesn't it?,
Why not the 4th at the NLGA vs. #9 at Yale

#13 at ANGC or #17 at TOC
The road hole

#5 at Cuscowilla or #3 at Rustic Canyon
haven't seen Cuscowilla, wasn't blown away by Rustic

#10 at Riveria or #4 at Spyglass
The best four on the planet remains the 10th at Riviera

#8 at Royal Troon or #10 at Pine Valley
Great question.....can't pick. Funny you picked two of my favourite threes that I have ever played (well done)

#9 at RCD or #16 at Pasatiempo
#16 at Pasatiempo, by a tee shot

#5 at Pinehurst(2) or #18 at Shinnecock
#5 at Pinehurst, although the green speed is ruining the great hole.

[blasbe1]

Bringing this back on topic, that might be a tougher challenge in terms of comparison... 5 Cuscowilla v. 6 PD... and in that epic battle I'm gonna head to Oregon....

While I really like #6 at PD I'd say #5 at Cuscowilla by a good margin more reward if you hit the driver.  Even if you kill the ball it seems all but impossible to roll onto and hold #6 green, and if you carry it that far ala Hank Kuenhe there's noway it's going to hold.   Long right is dead at PD #6 as is short left, thus while Cuscowilla will accept a draw or cut with driver, it appears #6 at PD favors a draw only, again, if you're going at the green.

 

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