[Phil_the_Author]

It was with sadness that I learned that the tall & stately maple tree that guards the right fairway corner of the first hole of Bethpage Black is dead. They will be removing it in December.

Unlike #18 on Pebble, there are no plans to replace it.

The hole will look so different without it, & yet it probably will not affect play in the least.

[SL_Solow]

Rumor has it that a mysterious figure resembling Redanman was seen in the vicinity just prior to the tree's demise.

[tlavin]

It was with sadness that I learned that the tall & stately maple tree that guards the right fairway corner of the first hole of Bethpage Black is dead. They will be removing it in December.

Unlike #18 on Pebble, there are no plans to replace it.

The hole will look so different without it, & yet it probably will not affect play in the least.

RIP, tree

[Matt_Ward]

Phil:

The tree you are speaking about played a mega crucial role at the 1st at BB.

Now with it gone you can expect golfers -- especially those in the '09 Open to fire at-will down that side with the driver -- particularly if the wind is blowing out of the prevailing southwest direction.

Many of the players opted for 3-metals and the like at the '02 event -- the loss of the tree will have an impact on the hole IMHO. Yes, they can grow the rough but the direct angle that the tree previously blocked will make for a completely different -- and in my mind -- slightly easier starting hole.

My suggestion for the facility -- push the OB markers from the 1st hole at the Green Course much closer to the area that borders the 1st at the Black. There's nothing wrong with doing that and it would serve as some sort of deterrent for those who believe they can attack the hole with impunity.

[TEPaul]

"Sorry, I was in Canada, looking for passage to France."

redanman:

Whoa big fella--no need to be so stand-offish, you're amongst friends here in the City of Brotherly Love. I already told you a bunch of times I'll send you over to France. You just have to give me your passport and promise me you won't try to come back!  



 

[Dan Kelly]

Yes, they can grow the rough but the direct angle that the tree previously blocked will make for a completely different -- and in my mind -- slightly easier starting hole.

My suggestion for the facility -- push the OB markers from the 1st hole at the Green Course much closer to the area that borders the 1st at the Black. There's nothing wrong with doing that and it would serve as some sort of deterrent for those who believe they can attack the hole with impunity.

What's wrong with a slightly easier starting hole -- especially if the alternative is to pinch the hole with OB markers?

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

There is no pinching of the hole with OB on both sides.

The 1st at BB needed the tree because it was so wide and so high to prevent only the Jason Zubacks or of comparable length from simply flying over the tree and making a mockery of the dog-leg right.

I don't doubt Tiger could have flown the tree if the wind was slightly helping but the odds forced players to the left and many usually went with a driver or 3-metal and then hit a short-to-mid iron into the hole respectively.

With the tree gone and with players starting from a 20 -30 foot elevated tee the opportunity will exist for players to simply crush with abandon their tee shots down that side where the tree is now. Talk about a hole that needed the lumber and is now totally undressed! It's entirely possible for players to come within 50 yards of the green if conditions and their execution is at top levels.

I suggested moving the OB in from the right because on any regular day at Bethpage the OB is used to separate the 1st of the Black from the 1st at the Green.

Moving the OB right on top of the right hand side of the fairway at the 1st may create a "mind" deterrent for all but the most daring and adventurous to cut the corner. This is no different than a number of BO sites use during the championship -- Troon has one of special note.

I'm not in favor of doing a Lon Hinkle spruce tree alternative but I think placing the right hand OB closer to that side is appropriate and fair.

[Phil_the_Author]

Matt,

That is no longer an option as there is no longer OB between the 1st holes of the Black & Green courses. That was the only place on the course where there was Out-of-Bounds & so it is now a course without any OB!

[Cliff Hamm]

If there's anything I hate it is artificial OB.  To me OB should only be when the ball leaves the boundaries of the property.  One can argue that you are leaving the property on the first at Bethpage Black because it is bordered by another course, but I still believe play it where it lies.  If it's hittable and not on someone else's property why should it be out of bounds?  To me this is quite artificial and any hole could be made tight by putting up OB stakes.

Cliff

[EAF]

I used to play BB regularly and am sad to hear about the tree's demise. That tree set the stage for a strategic round of golf. I witnessed many many players screw up their round by trying to thread the needle through that tree the right rough short of the tree. Even the pitch over or under the tree from the thick rough was challenging. Any drive that was in the right half of the fairway near the 200 yd mark forced players to make a risky shot over the corner of the tree to the green.

Yes the tree was not too much of a problem for long-hitters, but the tree forced 90% of Bethpage players to hit a quality tee shot from the first hole, just like the other tee shots on that great course.

I miss Bethpage. The weather is great here in Florida, there are plenty of courses, there is no Bethpage Black though.  

Eric

[Jeff_Brauer]

Not quite on topic, but I recall visiting a course in South Texas years ago on a master plan.  There was a "key tree" on the corner of the dogleg that we were discussing.  One member noticed that it was hollow, and that there were several cottonmouths in the trunk.  He had someone go over and get a flamethrower to burn the snakes to death.

Well, the fired it up, blew it in the hole, and the snakes started slithering out of the tree, in too many directions to hit.  Meanwhile, the flames went up through the hollow trunk, and the tree burned to the ground in about an hour, while the snakes survived.....

[Matt_Ward]

Philip:

The issue of ending the OB on the 1st at BB is really hasty IMHO. The Green Course is a separate entity -- and I take issue with those who say OB should be off-course property. Hello folks -- the Green is a different course than the Black -- while both courses are on the same total property the boundaries for one course ends where the other course begins and if deemed as OB is totally appropriate in my mind.

When you take the OB out I would then encourage all contestants in the '09 Open to blast tee shots down the 1st of the Green and simply cut-off a good chunk of yardage to get to the 1st the Black. The hole was not designed for that type of play.

Like I said previously, I have no issue with the OB stakes being pushed closer to the 1st at the Black. With the big tree gone you will need some sort of deterrent -- at least in the minds of the world's best -- to keep them from just blasting tee shots with impunity down that side.

[EAF]

It is incorrect to say that there are no OB boundaries for Bethpage Black. On the first hole there is OB directly behind the green over the fence onto Round Swamp Road. There is OB to the right and behind the 6th green. There is fence which marks OB way to the right of the 7th, 8th, and 9th holes. That same fence marks OB behind the 10th green. There used to be a wooden rail fence to the right of the 15th fairway that marked OB on that hole too. Most of the OB is well off the centerlines of all those holes; however, I have seen balls hit OB on each of the holes listed above.

Eric

[Matt_Ward]

EAF:

You also forgot to mention that any poor slob who flies it too far behind the 18th will also enocunter OB.

The integrity of the 1st hole was tied to the placement and size of the tree that will no longer be present. Remove the tree and ergo the vast preonderance of the deterrent in going down that side ends.

I don't doubt you can grow rough to the size of Kansas wheat but the big boys in the proper conditions can now fly the corner and have nothing more than a flip SW into the target. Pushing OB stakes immediately near the driving zone on the right will make s-o-m-e pay heed to the consequences of a failed tee shot that fades ever so slightly too much to that side.

I have no problem with people being rewarded for daring play but it cannot be simply given away with impunity.

[Cliff Hamm]

Doesn't using OB markers instead of replacing a tree get to the heart of restoration instead of renovation.  It seems that most posters are vehemently opposed to renovation and are whole heartedly in favor of restoration to the original design.  If said tree is integral to the design why be in favor of artificial OB?   Shouldn't the tree be replaced?  If a deterrent is needed perhaps netting down the side of the fairway 500 feet high would do the trick and if not surely a waterfall stragically placed would work  

Cliff

[ChipOat]

That tree most definitely blocked a shot to the green from the right 1/4 of the fairway unless the drive went 275+.

It was the quintessential Stupid Tree and it's death is a golf architecture blessing.  Kudo's to Bethpage for not planning to replace it.

If the hole is now a no-brainer, then the green complex is in need of alterations.  Let the challenge of a hole be a function of what the architect built on the GROUND.

[Dan Kelly]

Not quite on topic, but I recall visiting a course in South Texas years ago on a master plan.  There was a "key tree" on the corner of the dogleg that we were discussing.  One member noticed that it was hollow, and that there were several cottonmouths in the trunk.  He had someone go over and get a flamethrower to burn the snakes to death.

Well, the fired it up, blew it in the hole, and the snakes started slithering out of the tree, in too many directions to hit.  Meanwhile, the flames went up through the hollow trunk, and the tree burned to the ground in about an hour, while the snakes survived.....

Jeff --

They should've just let you and McDowell loose, with a cart and a 4-iron.

Coulda saved that tree.

Dan

[Jeff_Brauer]

Not quite on topic, but I recall visiting a course in South Texas years ago on a master plan.  There was a "key tree" on the corner of the dogleg that we were discussing.  One member noticed that it was hollow, and that there were several cottonmouths in the trunk.  He had someone go over and get a flamethrower to burn the snakes to death.

Well, the fired it up, blew it in the hole, and the snakes started slithering out of the tree, in too many directions to hit.  Meanwhile, the flames went up through the hollow trunk, and the tree burned to the ground in about an hour, while the snakes survived.....

Jeff --

They should've just let you and McDowell loose, with a cart and a 4-iron.

Coulda saved that tree.

Dan

We specialize in rhodents....

[Dan Kelly]

What was I thinking?

Not a cart and a 4-iron!

A cart and a golf shoe!

No wonder no one trusts "the media."

P.S. Jeff -- You and Mr. McDowell are Rhodent Scholars.

[Phil_the_Author]

Since the discussion has gone in that direction, I feel that I should provide a bit of information that most are unaware of. The course as originally designed by Tillinghast, underwent its first "renovation" after 1936 & was completed by September of 1938.

Among the changes made was a removal of the original 2 bunkers that ran nearly the entire length of the right side of the 1st hole, with only a gap of 10-15 yards between them at the corner. When these were removed, by Mr. Burbeck, mature trees of 10+ feet in height were planted. So the tree that is being removed was NEVER part of the original design. There is some talk about placing a bunker in the right rough past the turn because there was one originally.

Not to pump my up-coming Tilly biography, but the changes to Bethpage Black & the proof of what Tillinghast, Burbeck & Jones did with the course, including the photographic evidence of this, will be contained in it.

Matt, you forget that the entire first fairway of the Green Course will be the site of Hospitality tents and imposible to play that way.

[Matt_Ward]

Phil:

If the 1st at the Green is going to handle hospitality then what's the big deal in taking the existing OB -- clearly the hospitality area will be OB -- and simply moving the stakes closer to where the 1st hole tree was?

Do people understand how close the OB was on a few holes on the back nine at Troon? I mean if you simply sneezed a bit the ball could very easily drift out of play!

Guys -- I don't think many of you have a very clear understanding of how important that tree was and the impact it will cause with it being gone.

Bunkers on the right side will not prevent players hitting from a 20-30 foot elevated tee to launch drivers down that side -- particularly with the prevailing SW wind behind them. The tree served the role like Shaq guarding the center point of the lane.

This notion that OB is some sort of contrivance is big time BS. OB is entirley appropriate because the land right of the 1st can be rightly deemed by the committee (USGA) as being OB. No different than flying a shot over the road behind the 1st at the Black.

Let me also mention this silly idea that putting back a tree is nothing more than Lon Hinkle / re: Inverness solution. I'd much rather see the 1st play as a gambling hole which allows the players to cut the corner and get off to a solid start but also knowing that the slightest push / fade could mean the most dreaded words in golf .... RE-LOAD !!!

[Rick Shefchik]

How essential could the tree have been if it wasn't there when Tilly (or Burbeck) designed the course?

[Phil_the_Author]

Matt,

The OB on the first hole is no longer there for anyone - it is gone completely. I think that is a mistake.

Dave & Rick, for me the removal of the tree is one of esthetics over difficulty. Anyone who can fly a driver beyond the tree and into the fairway can do so tree or no tree. The tree does not serve as an obstacle for that. It does provide a formidable carry if one has placed their drive in the right side of the fairway or rough, but can be surmounted by someone who can fade a ball.

The tree is majestic and adds a dignified beauty to the course that will be sorely missed.

By the way Rick, there is no longer any doubt that it was Tilly who designed & routed the Black. Burbeck did a renovation to it after it was finished.

[Rick Shefchik]

Thanks, Phil. I was just having a little fun with the Ron Whitten controversey that raged here during that Open. Ron was going to get back to us about his sources, by the way...

[Matt_Ward]

Phil:

Let's be clear -- OB on the 1st hole at the Black -- specifically hitting towards the 1st hole on the Green
Course -- existed for quite some time -- likely for at least 25 years or more from the time I have been playing at the facility. It's removal is a recent thing.

Dave:

Let's go through each point you attempted to make.

First, let's be clear regarding the 18th at Lakota Canyon which you have never played. I said if the big hitter can execute at the highest level with two superb shots he deserves the advantage versus that of the player who opts to play at the green in three shots. I have no problem with longer players getting an advantage when they've earned it.

Second, Dave -- Dave -- you need to re-read what I actually wrote -- I never said the answer to the 1st hole at BB was to lengthen it.

Third, the OB in question existed for quite some time -- granted you may not know this since you have little real knowledge on the Black. That's OK -- I can assist with your ignorance. The 1st at BB is right next to the 1st on the Green -- for years any player hitting towards the 1st on the Green while playing the 1st at the Black was OB. I see nothing wrong with that -- it's a different course and well within the parameters to be delcared as OB. It's not some gimmick that was inserted into the mixture as you seem to imply.

The tree situation should never have been pursued. I agree with Phil that placement of bunkers can be done, but not the lame fairway types -- I would suggest having bunkers that will extract some real penalty for those failing to execute.

Even with that said -- I still believe placing the OB marks closer to the right side of the 1st at BB is even more of a deterrent because the penalty in OB situations is likely to be more than what any bunker can provide -- save the most penal of types.

Dave -- I have no problem with long hitters having an advantage when it's executed at the highest level. With the tree gone -- I actually believe it's even better and certainly a more fairer hole than previously -- as Chip Oat mentioned the tree forced weaker players essentially out of the mixture for score purposes unless you cranked a drive 275 yards if you favored the right side. The differential for the better player was too great and I believe some sort of balance could be effectuated. Losing the tree will help with the mid-to-high handicapper.

I also believe having the tree eliminated will allow for greater risks to be taken from the tee which is OK with me. The big boys can cut the corner and reap a much shorter 2nd if they succeed. I would just like to see some obstacle of consequence inserted that ties the reward to some sort of risk. In the 2002 US Open the 1st simply meant a fairway metal for the top players and a mid-iron -- no one seriously contemplated cutting the corner because of the tree.

Dave -- I almost fell off the chair with laughter when you tried to insert that lumber-rama of a layout with upteeeeeeen makeovers, facelifts -- also known as Medinah -- into the picture. I love your desire to somehow provide for a linkage but your grasping at straws partner.

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