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Brent Hutto

Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« on: September 16, 2004, 10:06:19 AM »
I've read a couple books on golf course architecture, including two cover-to-cover readings of Anatomy of a Golf Course. And for the past few months I've been trying to pay attention to the features of golf courses I play in order to learn how to notice the architectural features that determine how a course plays. So far, I've basically come up with nothing.

So how about some suggestions for looking at a course in ways that might give an inkling of what an accomplished student of golf course architecture sees looking at the same course? Are there any features of a hole to look for that might demonstrate the hand of the architect in providing whatever set of choices are available as I play the hole?

Ideally, I'd love a couple of concrete examples of common arcthitectural features or "tricks" that might be found at my home course if I look closely enough. I mean, I'd recognize if we had a Redan Par 3 (we don't) and I hope I'm perceptive enough to notice fairways where the side easier to reach off the tee gives an harder approach angle than the other side to provide a rudimentary tradeoff between tee shot risk and approach shot reward (I think we have a couple of those). But for most holes on the course I play every week the strategy seems pretty obvious and it's just a matter of execution. When I travel to a new course, it's no surprise that I don't perceive much subtlety since I can't even see it on a course I've played a hundred times.

So, any ideas to jump-start my education?

A_Clay_Man

Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2004, 10:20:24 AM »
I'd suggest two things;

Start looking for simplicity. Nothing over-constructed, but some small feature, maybe a well placed mound, that eithers causes you concern, or is deceptive, or maybe one you can use to aid in your attempt to acheive the goal at hand.

The other suggestionis to go into the bowels of this website, submerse yourself in the page long writtings and absorb.

Since one of the first things I learned reading these pages and getting insight from many of the practitioners is that everything is specific. Site, course, hole, shot, etc.

So where is that your playing this golf? Perhaps there is nothing of note to see, there. ;D

THuckaby2

Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2004, 10:29:49 AM »
Brent:

First of all, are you sure you WANT to do this?  The game is pretty damn fun without dissecting courses to the microbial level that these nuts in here do.  It's also kind of like the dark side of the force:  once you turn towards this dissection of architecture, forever will it dominate your destiny....  ;)

But that being said, perhaps it's as simple as seeing more courses.  Adam's right - it's entirely possible that your home course has no subtlety to be found (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that - it still can be great fun).  

At a new course, sure you don't see sutlety - here's the dark secret - NO ONE DOES, unless that is absolutely what he is looking for.  If you go with an eye toward playing the game, you have enough to think about - making solid contact, watching where it goes, hitting the proper shots - so trying to find architectural subtleties amidst all that is just too much to expect for anyone.

So if you REALLY want to do this - and I caution that it is scary and is sure as hell not necessary for enjoyment of the game - you're going to have to see more courses, and really SEE them with an eye toward study first and playing the game second.  That's pretty damn tough to do.  Lots of people here do it regularly, but remember, this place is full of nut-cases.  It remains hard for most people to go to a course and NOT focus on playing.

But that might be what it takes, if "seeing a course's architecture" really is your goal.

TH

ps - the terms "nuts" and "nut-cases" are used fondly and with the greatest affection, and are also meant to be self-deprecatory.   ;D

Scratch_Nathan

Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2004, 10:46:59 AM »
For starters...

Consider imagining each hole in reverse.  From the hole toward the tee, think about the approach angles that reward the player with the easiest shot.  IMHO, superior architecture will always reveal a best route and sometimes choices of best routes to play the hole.  

Successfully negotiate/challenge a hazard and be rewarded, play it safe or fail in executing the proper shot, and be punished accordingly and in proportion with the miss.

Maybe over-simplified for some (and there are soooo many other things to observe and appreciate), but I think that's the most fundamental way to recognize the kind of shot-value thought that went into a course's design.  


Brent Hutto

Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2004, 10:53:30 AM »
I suppose I should have mentioned my home course. It is the University Club in Blythewood, SC. It's 27 holes, built about ten years ago, designed by P.B. Dye (like several other courses in town) and is loosely affiliated with the University of South Carolina (which mostly means the men's and women's golf teams use it to host their SEC tournaments every year).

I suspect the University Club is not without architectural merit although it isn't going to make it onto anyone's Top 100 list. Lots of elevation changes throughout, fairly wide and forgiving fairways with Bermuda grass (somewhat overwatered for my taste). Medium-large greens, many with multiple tiers, that can be made reasonably firm and quite fast when the weather cooperates. The green contours and to a lesser extent greenside bunkers are the main defense against low scoring. If the greens get soft due to a lot of rain and the holes are cut in easy positions it can be a pushover course. When the greens are firm and quick the course can be made almost arbitrarily difficult (w.r.t. scoring) by cutting holes on the tougher slopes.

I think the most interesting architectural features of the course are a couple of challenging short Par 4's. My favorite one needs a downhill 180-230 yard layup tee shot to a reverse-camber dogleg left fairway and then a wedge or short iron shot back uphill to a severely sloping green set into the side of a hill and falling away into thick rough on the front and right sides. As a bogey golfer I can par that hole the majority of the time yet even the scratch members very seldom make a birdie there. There's another short two-shotter that is driveable by hitting a blind uphill shot of about 250 yards over a right dogleg protected by very tall trees. All the big hitters like to go for the green but in my observation they always make bogey. I play it 3-wood, 8-iron from the fairway or else hit driver up the right edge of the fairway which requires carrying it 210 or so over a fairway bunker but leaves an easy little sand wedge shot.

So my point is that while it's your basic member-friendly layout it certainly doesn't have many dead-straight fairways and flat greens fronted and flanked by bunkers, which is my idea of boring architecture. As I proof-read my own comments, I think the suggestion to think and look backwards from the greens is right on. This is a course designed putting, chipping and keeping approach shots on the correct tier of the greens. Thinking about it from the tee box probably obscures the real point of most of the holes.

As for Tom H's point...well, anything I can think of during a round other than a scorecard or my position at the top of my backswing is a good thing for my game. But moderation in all things is a virtue. If I ever get a chance to play down at Augusta I wouldn't want to come away bitching about too many trees added and taking away the strategic width of the course or whatever it is that a true obsessive would find objectionable ;-)

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2004, 10:59:11 AM »
Brent,
  What level of golfer are you?  Who designed the course the course you regularly play? What are some of the best courses you have played, and did you notice the architecture there?
   The downside to really delving into the architecture and learning more about it, is that it is really difficult to waste time golfing on mediocre courses, after you have seen some of the brilliance of the well-designed courses.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2004, 11:02:00 AM »
Probably the most beneficial learning process for me has been playing golf in the British Isles (mostly Ireland). At home in Virginia it's all parkland courses and in the British Isles it's all links golf. My first couple of trips, I would try to play eight courses in seven days and I don't think I really learned much of anything. I really began to pick up on subtle differences when I would go to a classic course such as Portrush or Ballybunion and spend three or four consecutive days playing the course. Hopefully the weather/wind conditions would change and I could see the course differently. You really learn to appreciate strategic options on these course which  just aren't present on many parkland courses and when I do see them on a parkland course they are recognizable.

Brent Hutto

Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2004, 11:15:52 AM »
What level of golfer are you?  Who designed the course the course you regularly play? What are some of the best courses you have played, and did you notice the architecture there?
My handicap index recently dipped below 20 for the first time so I'm pretty much the prototypical bogey golfer. I'm a short hitter so whenever I score in the 80's it's a round where I hardly waste any shots around the greens. For me, the most fun in golf (well, other than knocking it close and having a tap-in birdie) is successfully making par on a long hole I can't reach in regulation. Hit the fairway, layup to a perfect distance right on a good wedge number, wedge it close and make the putt. I love that. I practice hitting wedges and chipping more than anything else because those are the shots I enjoy and I want to be able to hit them every time I need to.

The best course I've ever played in Pine Needles, a 36 hole day this past February. I can't explain a single thing that I noticed about the course architecture even though I loved the course immensely and can't wait to return when it reopens. The fact that I can't describe why that is the most fun course (by far) that I've ever played is what started my interest in GCA and brought me to this site. It's something about the green complexes that I like but without being able to describe it I'll just say that on that course (and to a certain extent at Mid-Pines and Granville Golf Course, my two other Ross courses) I can visualize shots that need to be hit around the green or even on the approach that I can't imagine when I'm playing other courses. It's like every hole has some kind of slope or contour that jumps out at you as "hit it here" and then it's just a question of executing the shot. Most courses are more like aim down the middle of the fairway, aim for the middle of the green, no real "options" seem apparent to me.

Pete Buczkowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2004, 11:22:19 AM »
  The downside to really delving into the architecture and learning more about it, is that it is really difficult to waste time golfing on mediocre courses, after you have seen some of the brilliance of the well-designed courses.

Wow, did I just look in the mirror.  

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2004, 11:28:55 AM »
The downside to really delving into the architecture and learning more about it, is that it is really difficult to waste time golfing on mediocre courses, after you have seen some of the brilliance of the well-designed courses.

I disagree.

I can waste time playing golf on mediocre courses with the best of them.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2004, 11:53:23 AM »
One of the approaches I take is with holes that I have trouble with and can't immediately see the reason.  Oftentimes it is the subtlety that I miss.  Don't overlook the obvious.

When I have a hole like that I go back look at the features to determine what is causing me trouble.  From there I almost always find a small feature left there by an architect that complicates the hole.  

I think of the "Case of the Purloined Letter" where the most important clues are left in such plain site that we miss them on first investigation.  This for me is at least one part of part of great architecture and maintenance.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2004, 12:55:13 PM »
I look at the routing and flow of the course carefully.  How the architect gets the round started and builds from there is important to me (I like a hole which introduces the player to the course; representative of what is to come, but not a round-killer nor a give-away- #1 at Sand Hills is a prototype; #1 at Black Mesa as an antithesis).

The angles from the tees and the location of the major design features (bunkers, green sites, surrounds) are of great interest to me.  Like most here, I prefer holes with multiple options, though I do not mind at all a hole or two out of 18 where the architect demands a certain shot (#17 at the TPC @ Sawgrass).

I am not a proponent of either pancake flat greens nor those resembling the Women's Putting Course at St. Andrews.  I like greens where you can see a variety of contours as you are approaching them, and which promote the confidence that if read and struck properly, that you can get the putt within three feet, and perhaps sneak in a few.

I look for holes which mix up the shots, e.g. a short par 3 followed by a long par 4 requiring a good drive and a mid to long iron.  Conversely, I don't like a difficult hole such as the long par 3 #8 at Cuscowilla, followed by a bear of a long uphill par 4, #9 (Coore supposedly does not like to follow up a long shot hole with a more simple one).

Variety of the hole within the one, two, and three shotters is important to me.  Particularly on the par 3s, I like the points of the compass concept, more so when 3 or 4 considerably different tee shots are required.  In areas where there are significant prevailing winds, I look at the long holes to see if they are typically downwind, and the short and medium length into it (which makes them play more similarly).  Likewise for courses on sloping topography- long downhill holes; short uphill ones.  I see nothing wrong with a drivable par 4 and a long one which requires a solid tee shot and a long iron/fairway wood second.

Holes that closely resemble others in the round either in the way they look or play are negatives.  Wild Horse has a couple of par 4s on the backside with cross bunkering falling in this category.   My home course, Great Southwest GC in Texas, has two par 5s and par 3s that play the same direction with similar clubs, and a few par 4s that are repetitive, which, in my opinion, greatly detract from what is otherwise a very good Ralph Plummer/Jeff Brauer course.

I also try not to read too much into the design of the course.  I am acquainted with enough architects to know that a number of the features are less the result of design intent than serendipity.  Nature, maturation, evolution, and cultural practices (Pinehurst #2) often account for some of the best things in golf.  In that context, I am generally in agreement with Adam Clayman's statement about simplicity.

A question that has been addressed here before but never to my satisfaction- can the average player really learn to see a course's architecture in a meaningful way if that person is unable to execute the shots?   Can the genius of Thomas's #10 at Riviera be recognized if the player can't drive it close to the green, or due to the velcro kikuyu preventing the bump an round, spin the ball sufficiently to hold the green with a wedge?  I am not trying to be provocative; just curious.
 

Brent Hutto

Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2004, 01:09:07 PM »
A question that has been addressed here before but never to my satisfaction- can the average player really learn to see a course's architecture in a meaningful way if that person is unable to execute the shots?   Can the genius of Thomas's #10 at Riviera be recognized if the player can't drive it close to the green, or due to the velcro kikuyu preventing the bump an round, spin the ball sufficiently to hold the green with a wedge?  I am not trying to be provocative; just curious.
I'd think the ideal would be that there should be at least some interesting features to a course's architecture that can be experienced by a less accomplished player. But I also think a bogey golfer does not play a game that can engage all of the more subtle elements of a great course. That's as it should be in my opinion, one criteria for greatness is that a course offers the best players challenges specific to their high level of skill, no?

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2004, 01:28:03 PM »
Actually, I think a truly great course engages all levels of play.  Some features will effect a twenty handicap and be unseen been by the two.  Conversely, the two finds interest in areas of the course the twenty may ever experience.  

Many designs overly depend on difficulty in an effort achieve greatness.  

Brent Hutto

Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2004, 01:29:19 PM »
At the risk of giving too trivial an example, I can recall a few holes from my day at Pine Needles that demonstrate how a long handicapper can still discern some degree of subtlety. My two friends who played with me that day are better than I am but still double-digit handicaps. One of them was bedeviled by continually having his ball trickle or bounce into greenside bunkers after hitting "perfect" approach shots. The second time around that afternoon the number of times that happened were much fewer.

What he discovered was that unlike the courses he most often plays aiming for the middle of the green is not generally the proper strategy. My score that day wasn't really much better than his but from the very first hole it seemed obvious to me that there were places to aim where an on-target or even substantially off-target shot would leave me in a position to hole out in two or at worst three shots. For instance on the first hole I aimed short and left of the green (because the hole was cut a little forward of center) and had an easy chip-and-putt after trickling back off the front of the green. He flew a much "better" shot to just below and right of the hole and ended up with a tricky shot from the right-hand bunker.

On the fifth hole of that same course (that's a tricky Par 3, right?) the flag was center-right and I aimed my tee shot at being past the hole in both rounds. There just looked like too much chance of coming way back off the green landing short and I'd rather have a tough downhill putt from 20-30 feet than be chipping up and over that false front. So both times I was rewarded for that strategy, once with a makable downhill putt from left of the hole and the other with a chip from just over the green. Now being the 20+ handicapper that I was that day I didn't make birdie with the short putt and I failed to make par from the back fringe but it sure beat the spots that my two companions ended up playing from.

So maybe that's why I liked the course. Maybe it rewards certain "strategy" that I'm capable of seeing and have at least a chance of executing. Obviously, a hole like the 17th at Sawgrass or the 12th at Augusta doesn't really admit any strategy that I'm capable of grokking but I think once you're able to hit the ball more or less in the air and the direction you're pointing most of the time there should be at least certain shots on certain holes that are worth asking yourself about a couple different strategic (or at least tactical) options.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2004, 01:32:01 PM »
If you play the course frequently (in other words, you're a member), try playing from all the different sets of tees.  This will frequently give you a vastly different perspective.

I'd also try playing the course by hitting to places off the tee you usually wouldn't 'visit'.  Try hitting to the outside of a dogleg to see if the architect is penalizing you.  You may find that the architect gives you a cleaner shot from out there than the shorter, but more difficult shot.

Try visiting some of the bunkers.  See what options you have - can you go for the green (from a fairway bunker), or should you play somewhere safe.

But my #1 way to 'do' architecture is to simply walk the course without any clubs.  Even better is to do this with another architecture fan.  See where the 'speed slots' are.  See where bunkers are designed to grab shots.  See where greens present optical illusions (take a ball for this one).  Make note of risk/reward.  See if the architect has built a fairly easy hole to act as a 'breather'.  Ask yourself if you'd change anything given the chance.

Brent Hutto

Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2004, 01:41:07 PM »
Ask yourself if you'd change anything given the chance.
Meaning of course changes more subtle than the one Par 5 at my home course that I would prefer to plow up and use as a Christmas-tree farm...

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2004, 02:32:30 PM »
Dan H says- "But my #1 way to 'do' architecture is to simply walk the course without any clubs.  Even better is to do this with another architecture fan."

Agree.  And this is just one area where this site has substantial upsides.  I've had the good fortune to play and just walk a few courses with the East Coast Lefties (Childs and Cirba), and the things these long-time gca aficionados see and discuss are worth at least twice the price of admission.

One such example is the 8th green complex at Sand Hills, where I made two rather dumb bogies with decent tee and approach shots, by failing to notice the demands on and around the green.  In the post round discussions, Geoffrey and Mike brought up the neat green complex of the 8th hole (somewhat horseshoeing a mid-profile bunker).  Having to leave the course early next morning before the others in the group went out for another 36, I took a cart sans clubs for about an hour.   And thanks to the two Lefties and various other architecture veterans, I was able to see and appreciate what I missed on the previous day at the 8th hole and several other places.

From Redanman, I picked up on paying attention to the greens complexes and getting a feel for the break and speed of the chips and putts as you are walking up to the green (another reason to foresake a cart).  Not only does that allow you to see more of the whole picture as well as the detail as one gets closer, it also speeds up play.  Though I don't fully agree with Bill's observations on trees and eye-candy, specially bunkers without function, they are interesting and motivate discussion.

Tom Paul's maintenance meld, perhaps not an original concept, but one I have not seen made better by anyone else, is something that does not occur to many people.  So many of our better golf courses are not maintained in conformance to its design that the experience is greatly diluted.  For example, I loved Riviera, but that damn kikuyu detracts substantially from the way the course plays (particularly on holes 4, 10, 18).  I doubt that most people can see or appreciate the architecture of a course if it is not maintained in congruence with the design (a course where the topography is interesting, the major design features, and perhaps the wind dictate a ground game, but the course is maintained to allow only an aerial attack).

There are any number of other examples.  I particularly enjoy playing the classic courses with a knowledgeable, long-time member who shares the history of the place.  While the anecdotes are often perceptions and opinions as opposed to facts, it is interesting and uplifiting to hear how much people care about their courses and the game of golf.      

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2004, 02:55:11 PM »
I second Lou's comments concerning maintenance and the posting that Tom Paul has done on this subject. I've regularly played a course that opened up three years ago and the influence of maintenance set-up is critical. I think the course is very good and they've tried several different maintenance patterns since opening. With each change in maintenance the course plays slightly different. I think people often criticize a new course without considering that they have probably yet to find the best maintenance set-up. It takes time and observation to identify the ideal "maintenance meld." To see this course go through each of these iterations has shown me first hand the points that Tom and Lou are making.

So I think studying new courses (if ownership is committed to constant improvement) and the changes over time is a worthwhile exercise. Unfortunately, I also know of a couple of other courses that management didn't have this commitment and the high water point for these courses was opening day.

rgkeller

Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2004, 03:06:15 PM »
I pay attention to what the ball does after I hit it.

I also reflect on how many different clubs and how many different types of shots I hit during the round.

But then, I have never been much of a sight seer.

TEPaul

Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2004, 06:34:43 PM »
How do you learn to see a course's architecure?

I have absolutely no idea! I think I used to know but I seem to have forgotten. Sorry about that I wish I could give you some advice but apparently not. What is it you wanted to know how to see again? Oh yeah, golf architecture. Nope, sorry!

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2004, 07:25:24 PM »
Michael,
   You have too much free time on your hands. :) I only get in about 25 rounds a year, and I don't take a single one for granted.

Brent,
  Lou brings up many good points. I think walking the course is a great way to see some of the architecture. I did this the first time I went to play High Pointe (one of Tom D's) early efforts. I took notes as I went around about features, contours, and green movement. The next day I played 36 holes and it was interesting to see what played the way I anticipated and what didn't. Then you learn a lot more of the subtlties as you go along with each round.
   Maintenance meld can be a HUGE issue at some courses. One I distinctly noticed a couple of years ago was at Barona Creek, out near San Diego. The first time I played was in January and the MM was perfect. The next time I played was for the first King's Putter, and at that time of year there is some other grass in play that causes the short game options to change. The springtime grass has a "sticky/velcro"-type quality to it that makes the short game more of a guessing game. So if I had played BC for the first time in the spring, I probably wouldn't have thought as much of the course, since I don't think the course plays as intended with that springtime grass.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2004, 10:55:45 PM »
Brent,

Firstly, look only for things that make you smile and make you think. That's really all you need to remember.

As for Adam's suggestion"...to go into the bowels of this website, submerse yourself in the page long writtings and absorb", I'd be very careful about taking this as an assignment. It's like being given advice from a student of dentistry to buy some sharp tools and poke around your mouth until you feel a sharp pain.

More has been written here which is no more advice that what you might overhear at a political cocktail party raising funds for the local sheriff. That is not to say that what you read here is pure nonsence. Much of it is really great stuff. When I read through these pages I feel that I've managed to turn it into a 60/40 blend.

Now. Re-read my first paragraph.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 10:56:56 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2004, 08:54:02 AM »
Forrest- I was referring to the archtectural content, not all the slings and arrows hurled by the pety.

 Somwhere in those bowels are 5000 word essays, written with abundant sensitivity, by the man, who above said, he couldn't help with the subject. Now that's irony.

I don't know if all those perils of wisdom, made the cut to the new format, and I don't know how much Forrest has read of them, but If one can separate the wheat from the dis-jointed, there is plenty to absorb on many subjects. One of them is gca.

There was a demarcation line, and it was sometime just before the SI article hit the newstands.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Learning to See a Course's Architecture
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2004, 09:08:47 AM »
Adam makes a good point. It often is better than 60/40. Just remember that its opinion, wit, speeches and writing without an editor or fact-checker.

Adam, you would perform a great deed by sending a private message to Brent, providing him with a list of the contributors who he might seek out in previous posts. I would hate to see him spend hours (even minutes), for example, sorting out the nuances of golf ball trajectory and its effects on the U.S. air traffic control system, or perhaps a spin-off of such a discussion in which mature trees across North America had somehow, overnight, reached heights of 100-feet and yet were easily hit over by average golfers with large-headed drivers or even 8-irons. Your advice would allow Brent to take much of what he reads in past posts and to sort it into bins, saving him time and contributing to his knowledge.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2004, 09:09:16 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com