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Tommy_Naccarato

Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« on: June 21, 2004, 02:03:28 PM »
"It's terrible that for our national championship they lost control of the golf course. This is not the way it's supposed to be.''-Tiger Woods

"When are they (USGA) going to grow a head? Get off your high horse and be good to the game." "They're ruining the game,'' "They're ruining the tournament. This isn't golf. Period.''-Jerry Kelly

"When you water it for one group and not for another, it's not the same golf course for everybody,''  "If you're going to water it, water it for everybody. It's not sour grapes. I hit a perfect shot and instead of it stopping 4-5 feet, I've got 30 feet and I three-putt it.''-Mike Weir

"The greens were dead from the start. It's the USGA's fault. They're trying to throw a little water on them to make it look like they're doing something, but it's not doing any good whatsoever. It's not the first time they've done this and it won't be the last. And on that note, I need a beer.''-Mark Calcavecchia

"The first group off, we were like guinea pigs,'' he said. "It's unfair that they watered the greens after we make 6. Kevin had a 3-footer that rolled off the green. If it was not watered for his group the green at No. 7 should not have been watered at all. It's the same for everybody, but it wasn't the same for me.''-J.J. Henry

Kevin_Reilly

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Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2004, 02:07:00 PM »
Who was the player who said something to the effect of "with all respect to President Reagan, the flags were at half-staff because the golf course was dead".

PS, I wish I could recall the comments of the team on the Golf Channel post game show last night...one guy advocated re-building the 7th green to take away some of the slope.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Mike Hendren

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Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2004, 02:08:27 PM »
Was the intervening watering of the 7th green for show only?  Would a quick spray really have any effect?

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Bob_Huntley

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Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2004, 02:12:55 PM »
Mike,

This is my point, the damage was done earlier than Sunday. The USGA officials in charge of the tournament were incompetent.

Kevin_Reilly

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Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2004, 02:17:23 PM »
I do not know anything about the subject, but found this article interesting.  Appears that the limited watering done on 7 would have little effect on the hardness of the green.

Green watering/syringing article
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Mike Hendren

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Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2004, 02:18:54 PM »
The tag line for this year's Open:  Water for show, putt for dough.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2004, 02:18:56 PM »
Kev,
I didn't hear that portion of the Golf Channel telecast, opting to finally let the evening come to a proper close, but judging from his defense of the course and the USGA the entire evening, I would say it was more then likely Mark Rolfing.

Mike,
Watering the green did have an affect. Its just that it wasn't done for all of the groups involved. From my reading of most of the major news agencies this morning, there is everything from the USGA actually looking at the first two groups play the hole as guinea pigs then shut it down while it took 20 minutes for the crew to get out there with hoses to Johnny Miller saying it was him who recognized how bad it was and he was the one that alerted the USGA to get down there and do something before a full-scale controversy erupted.

Jeff Maggert who parred the hole said it was a miracle that he did, and he was wondering why he didn't get water while the groups in front of him did. While it might be obvious to some that the USG was making the call as to how much water it did get, one thing is for sure: the hole was compromised by decision making, not design.

George Pazin

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Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2004, 02:46:40 PM »
With all due respect to JJ Henry, no golf course is ever exactly the same for everyone, regardless of whether its watered or not. All competitors get different conditions - different weather, different amounts of greens drying out if they aren't watering, different wind, different ball and spike marks, etc. Maybe JJ needs to join Dan King's Virtual Golf Tour.

And as to Jerry Kelly's "This isn't golf" I'd say, it seems a lot closer to what golf was and what we all complain that it no longer is, than the target golf wdege birdie fest of the PGA Tour.

I've criticised the USGA before on this site, but I think if one is going to attempt to be even somewhat objective, one has to say an occasional good thing. Even President Bill wasn't all bad. :)

I said it on several threads before - I'll take this setup, warts and all, over the regular tour stops any and every day of the week. Firm and fast to the extreme means you're going to have to live with the consequences.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike Benham

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Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2004, 02:48:47 PM »
Who was the player who said something to the effect of "with all respect to President Reagan, the flags were at half-staff because the golf course was dead".

PS, I wish I could recall the comments of the team on the Golf Channel post game show last night...one guy advocated re-building the 7th green to take away some of the slope.

The first quote was the other lefty, Steve Flesch ...

Chris DiMarco advocated re-designing the 7th ...  
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Chris_Clouser

Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2004, 03:24:18 PM »
Rolfing was the one on the panel who said the 7th green needed changed.


Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2004, 03:24:42 PM »
George,
I agree with you in regards to the class of venue and the conditioning of the course. When I first saw how beautiful those bunkers looked, how they breathed 1920, I was close to tears. Here is a superintendent that gets it!

But when you have a organizaton that ruins all of the good he did by dictating severity past the point of integrity--where the actual design of the course is ridiculed (not the smartest of comments by DiMarco) as well as the finger pointed at the superintendent and his crew by the Executive Director of the USGA on televisioned throughout the world--something is amiss.

Yes, the degree of how a golf course plays thorughout the day is different for all competitors, but when its because of a man-made interference, there should be exception to the rule--at least for our gauge of what is and isn't right or wrong.

The USGA, David Fay and others who are responsible for this debacle should be held accountable for their actions.  It has paled what was a great golf tournament simply because it brought into question the way the tournament is beng run as well as the organization that is allowing the ersatz equipment to be used that they are playing with.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2004, 03:25:30 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2004, 03:56:13 PM »
In response to Mr. Pazin.  The moisture content was probably very close to what it used to be......but mowing heights are nowhere close to what it used to be.  

Hard and fast works great when the greens are mowed above 1/8th of an inch but double cut rolled and waxed seems a bit much.  When they are mowing down to 85/1000ths and lower the putting surfaces simply can't survive.  Mower technology has simply outpaced the ability of the grass to withstand the stress under warm,dry  and windy conditions.  

George Pazin

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Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2004, 04:06:19 PM »
Tommy -

I don't condone what happened at #7, but I do accept it as a consequence of an attempt to have very firm and fast conditions. If they had watered just a bit too much, the course might have been too soft and everyone would have been complaining about how the wonderful redan had been reduced to an 8 iron pitch and hold. Like I said, I'd sooner have the balance tipped in favor of too firm and dry than too soft and wet.

To me, the setup at Shinnecock was much closer to good old fashioned golf than anything we see on a repeat basis here in the US. I thought the architecture shone through to afficianados, but I guess not - we're all split pretty evenly on the site.

Maybe that's the barometer for success - if discussion on the golf site is relatively balanced between complaining and praising!

I think Terry Lavin has been pretty terrific with his posts - and he ought to know.

I don't know the circumstances the circumstances behind the rolling of #7, but if it was ordered and then blamed on the maintenance crew, I will agree that is really weak and someone should probably pay for that - a formal apology and acknowledgment of the innocence of the grounds crew at the very least, and maybe even stronger than that.

Allowing the ball to dictate golf course redesign is probably something I'd call a debacle - not the setup at Shinnecock.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2004, 04:35:05 PM »
George,
Terry has all of my respects as a superintendent, and I think if it was him in the same situation as Mark Michaud, I would as honestly be defending him as I am Mark Michaud. They deserve better then being made patsy for some USGA official who isn't going to accept blame.

Look at the situation:

The Director of the USGA gets up on national television and essentially tells the world that there was a mistake. That for one reason or another the green got rolled by someone that didn't get the word.  He blames it on a crew member.

By doing this, he is actually laying blame on the superintendent and his control over his people.  A super of Michaud's quality just doesn't do this. Michaud then comes back and says essentially, "Don't shoot me, I'm just the piano player! I was playing what they told me to play!" How could you blame him? (Although the quote was indirectly stated by Jerry Kelly.)

So the next day rolls along and its a nightmare of a hole. Two groups play the hole and its playing characteristics are altered in attempts to stave-off further embarassment.  They do it, and the tournament while being questioned for its set-up at the suspect holes still is rated a thrilling finish and all is well and done--lets forget about it!

So whats going to happen next year at a course that will more then likely welcome these same mistakes on an even bigger scale? (Pinehurst #2)

You have to remember George, these same mistakes are occuring year after year, more  and more at every US Open.  Its going to get worse and soon its going to get to a critical point where they will have to suspend play because of a cooked set-up. Maybe it will be then when people will understand that the USGA has been in trouble and the powers that be are failing the Game.

Rick Shefchik

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Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2004, 05:03:58 PM »
George --

Though I liked the way Shinnecock played, for the most part -- we want firm and fast, we got firm and fast -- I think it would be a far worse outcome to speed up the course too much than too little.

I continue to believe the USGA got lucky. If the wind speeds had reached 30 mph, balls at rest would have been blowing off the greens -- taking the event from a controversey to a travesty.

Can you imagine this site today had the USGA stopped play because of wind -- at Shinnecock? No one wants to see that happen, but the USGA could not have nudged conditions closer to that point than they did this weekend.

Given that possibility, I'd rather live with a winning score of 5 under par, or even 10 under. But a happy medium was possible, I think.

Backing off on the green speeds just a little bit would have been enough, while still rewarding only the very best shots with reasonable birdie opportunities.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Jack_Marr

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Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2004, 05:15:23 PM »
There was a tournament in Europe in the last couple of years (maybe it was Spain) when one of the greens became unplayable because of dryness. They had to stop the play and everyone that had gone through the hole played it again after it was watered. The ruling was that all the competitors had to play the "same" golf course.

I could have some of the details here wrong.

It was fun to watch, anyway.
John Marr(inan)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2004, 09:52:28 PM »
Tommy Naccarato,

For years, you and many others have complained about the whining from the PGA Tour pros, saying that they should be ignored, but now that it suits your purpose, you think we should listen to what they say ?

Frank Hannigan told me years ago that they have a narrow perspective, usually contexted by their own game, and scores.

But now, they are the new gurus of golf, and you want us to listen to whatever they say.

I'd agree that perhaps a few greens got too fast, but I think it wasn't so much the greens, but the forward hole locations that got the best of the Best Players in the World.

They couldn't figure out, or wouldn't change their play to bump the ball beneath the hole, choosing time and time again, aerial shots, aided by the wind, when approaching the greens.

Are you going to blame the golf course when Goosen can't hit # 8 from 127 yards, leaving it short and in the right bunker ?

Are you going to blame the golf course when Goosen leaves a 9 iron short and in the bunker on # 14 ?

Are you going to blame the golf course for all of the MANY chilli dips the players hit ?

Are you going to blame the golf course for all of the LOB and SAND wedges hit high, that came down short of the green and ran back down the hills ?

Everybody in the Gallery and the Media wanted Phil Mickelson to win.  I wonder, if he had, if the Media would have declared Shinnecock as the greatest course and the 2004 Open as the greatest Open ever ?

Why did Mickelson miss the 17 green ?
Did his ball hit the right spot and get a bad bounce or roll ?
Was that the fault of the USGA ?

Rick Wolffe

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Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2004, 11:26:47 PM »
As far as quotes go, I like Dave Anderson's suggestion for an "automatic par" or better yet a "windmill" on hole #7.


SPORTS OF THE TIMES
For Mickelson, Savoring Cheers Tips the Balance
By DAVE ANDERSON

Published: June 21, 2004


Southampton, N.Y.

IN tipping his visor to the cheers before three-putting the 17th green in the 104th United States Open, did Phil Mickelson make the same mental mistake that Arnold Palmer made before losing the 1961 Masters?

After a birdie at the 16th hole at Shinnecock Hills, Mickelson had a one-stroke lead yesterday as he approached the bunker where his 6-iron tee shot on the 17th had plopped into the sand. Suddenly the cheers burst from the gallery there: "Gimme a P, gimme an H, gimme an I, gimme an L. What does that spell? Phil, Phil, Phil."

With a smiling laugh, Mickelson turned and tipped his visor. But would he have been better off to have ignored the chant, to have kept his concentration?

"I misjudged the bunker shot," he acknowledged later. "I thought I had to fly the ball to the hole, but I flew it too far. I didn't judge accurately how the ball would go on that green. The first putt broke right to left, but the wind took it more to the right than I thought. If there was no wind, it would have broke left."

The ball rolled 4 feet past the cup. After the roar for Retief Goosen's birdie at the nearby 16th, Mickelson missed again, then tapped in, enabling Goosen to win by two strokes.

That double bogey will haunt him. Just as Palmer has been haunted by a double-bogey 6 at the 1961 Masters after he acknowledged congratulations.

"After I hit my tee shot," Palmer has often said, "a friend of mine in the gallery shouted his congratulations and I went over and thanked him. I never should have done that."

Palmer's second shot faded into a greenside bunker, his third sailed over the green, he chipped back, then two-putted for the double bogey that enabled Gary Player to win by one stroke.

The more Mickelson thinks about his double bogey at the 17th, the more he might wonder if he should have acknowledged those cheers by tipping his visor, or if he might not have misjudged that bunker shot or might not have missed those two putts if he had remained in a cocoon of concentration.

Even with that double bogey, Mickelson shot 71, as did Goosen, in an Open that was written on the wind that had the Shinnecock Hills flags snapping and its greens like linoleum. Particularly the seventh green.

After three of the first four golfers to play the 189-yard seventh each had a triple-bogey 6, Walter Driver, the chairman of the United States Golf Association's competition committee, ordered a delay there to "lightly syringe" the sharply sloping green to soften it, then to water it every so often for the rest of the round.

The idea was to make that concrete-like green more receptive, an ethical mistake. Only weather should change the conditions of an Open course.

Then the U.S.G.A. compounded its mistake. The more water on the green, the more receptive the green, the greater advantage the leaders in the last few pairings had, at least theoretically.

Of the 62 who played the hole after it had been watered, only 12 kept their tee shots on the green. If the U.S.G.A. had wanted to be completely fair to the entire field, it should have declared the hole unplayable and granted every golfer a free par there. Either that or put a windmill on the green. Hit the windmill for an automatic birdie. And even before the leaders teed off, the Tiger Woods-Butch Harmon soap opera continued. Call it "Swings of Our Lives."

When Harmon, who had been Woods's golf guru for nearly a decade before being exiled nearly two years ago, was asked by NBC for his reaction to Woods's being upset with Harmon's criticism of him on British television, Harmon mentioned that he hadn't said anything that many pros haven't been saying on the practice tee.

"You look at his swing now, and it's totally changed," Harmon said. "The plane is different, the club comes more from the inside. He has to use his hands a lot more to square the club at impact."

Harmon suggested that Woods should "go back and try to put his ball in play, do the things he did in the past."

"He doesn't need me to do those," Harmon said. "He knows how to do them."

According to Harmon, that would enable Woods to control his ball flight, which would enable him to shoot lower scores.

"To win this championship," Harmon said, meaning the Open, "you have to control your ball. You can't let your ball control you."

Retief Goosen controlled his ball. Phil Mickelson controlled his ball. Tiger Woods didn't. He shot 76 to finish at 10 over par, tied for 17th. He'll soon forget that tie for 17th, but Phil Mickelson won't soon forget his 17th hole and his double bogey after he tipped his visor.


Top100Guru

Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2004, 01:29:39 AM »
I was there for rounds on Monday and Tuesday and I can attest that the green on Tuesday was nearly unplayable (that was the windyest day of the week too I might add) so the USGA had a good idea what was going on long before Saturday nights "all night wind"........I thought it was great and even pondered to myself what it would have been like if the US OPEN was being played at Myopia Hunt and they had green speeds like Shinnecock on holes 1, 4, 6, 11, 12, 13, 16 at Myopia. If so, #7 at Shinnecock would of looked like your grandma's "shag-carpet" in 72'...........

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2004, 01:44:17 AM »
Pat,

I'm tired of trying to prove to you that there was something wrong with the 7th.  Why don't you prove to all of us that the USGA did a great job there, that it was the superintendents fault because he disobeyed the USGA and rolled the green, and any other details we might be missing.

Until then, I'll go by what I have heard from many parties present until you prove otherwise.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2004, 10:19:53 AM »
Tommy Naccarato,

What you and others fail to realize is the precarious position that a green gets into when you bring it close to the optimum of firm and fast conditions.

I've questioned the alleged miscommunication with respect to rolling that green, and I've stated that they let that green get away from them.

But, that's easy to do when you push what you and others have pushed for for so long, FIRM & FAST conditions to challenge the best players in the world.

Prior to, and during the tournament, many if not most were touting the course and conditions as perfect, so why not salute that effort and more importantly that DIRECTION, instead of harping on the fact that they made a mistake on
# 7.   Everyone knows they made a mistake on # 7.

If they did 97 % of everything correct on course conditioning and set-up and made mistakes 3 % of the time, why harp on the negative to the exclusion of the positive, and why not praise the general trend toward fast and firm conditions, instead of complaining about what happens when you get precariously close, and go over the edge with fast & firm conditons ?

Your harangue will only revitalize lush conditions for golf tournaments and regular play.

You're certainly not helping your cause and your belief that firm & fast conditions are better for golf.

Green Chairman and Club Presidents everywhere will say,
"see, we were right, look at what happens in the summer when you get the course firm and fast, you can lose it, or create havoc for the members".

Get off of the bandwagon and/or soapbox, you're hurting your cause because of a blind belief that everything the USGA does is bad for golf.

Sorry, but that's the way I see it.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Quotes From The Watered-Down 7th.......
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2004, 10:27:26 AM »
This morning on the Golf Channel, I heard a discussion that began with the question, "Is flattening it the only thing they can do for the next Open?"

How about this question...

How does the R&A achieve fast and firm conditions, on windy, dry sites, and have the greens still puttable...even sometimes slow?

Uh...maybe they don't cut them so short?   ::)