[Tim Taylor]

With all the talk of acreage of fairways and fancy clubhouses and such, I thought I'd try a tangential topic.

Let's say one of us won the Lotto for many millions of dollars and wanted to build and run a private golf club. Not a country club, a golf club.

Assume that decent property could be found within an hours drive of a major metropolitan area - Loudoun County, VA or Frederick County, MD outside DC for example.

Assume a member's course, not a "championship course". So something in the 67xx-68xx yard range, par 70/71. Assume typical or average environmental concerns - some streams, some wetlands, etc. but nothing extreme. Nice terrain suitable for golf without needing an army of bulldozers.

Assume the desire to have a challenging, natural course without a bunch of manmade features. Something along the lines of Cuscowilla or Hidden Creek or Stonewall (based on the pictures/reviews on GCA). A membership that values playable conditions over greenness and fancy landscaping.

Assume a membership goal of, say, 400. A clubhouse with mens and ladies locker rooms and a nice but simple grill room for drinks and a quick bite after golf.

What's it take to build it? What's it take to run it? Where would you set fees and dues to keep it all going?

TimT

now, off the play the lottery

[Mike_Sweeney]

see:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=7033

The only difference is land acquisition cost which I would guess is $25,000 per acre in the scenario you laid out.

[Brad Klein]

Everything in the scenario has a cost fluctuation ratio of 10-1, so it's meaningless to estimate or even guess. A good rule of thumb for daily-fees is that your green fee should be about $10 for each million of total development/construction costs.

Check out an essay that Scott Kauffman wrote on design/development/construction costs for two different scenarios, a low-cost and a high-end golf course. It's in our new Golfweek book, "A Walk in the Park."

[rgkeller]

Everything in the scenario has a cost fluctuation ratio of 10-1, so it's meaningless to estimate or even guess. A good rule of thumb for daily-fees is that your green fee should be about $10 for each million of total development/construction costs.

Check out an essay that Scott Kauffman wrioe on design/development/construction costs for two different scenarios, a low-cost and a high-end golf course. It's in our new Golfweek book, "A Walk in the Park."

Of course, any cost estimates that Mr. Kauffman might have made in his essay must have been meaningless.

[Brad Klein]

rgkeller, maybe you ought to read the essay before you make silly comments like that. Mr. Kauffmann's essay details two very different and very detailed scenarios for high and low budget operations drawn from case studies. The point of my suggestion, like Kauffmann's essay as a whole, is that even for one site, costs will vary, and that instead of using hypothteical cases one has to deal, as the author does, with specific examples. The thread is based upon extremely vague criteria that say nothing about site constraints, soils, tree cover, the permit process, clubhouse size, etc.

[Jim Thompson]

Mr. Keller,

In light of the new, er, old respectful GCA, kindly check your level of pricktitude when you log in.  This type of posting irks me to no end, is completely unproductive, and if continued will lead to very gratious and generous resources like Mr. Klein wondering why they frequent the site and share ideas.  

I can think of a dozen threads I would have posted on this evening, but quite frankly, don't have the patience to concern myself with syntactical precision after yet another 16 hour day.  The counter examination and word twisting is becoming commonplace here and getting real old, real fast. (I understand that some of you legal types enjoy the banter and am grateful that you keep it all in good fun amongst yourselves=) )Although I lack the omniscient status of some of the members of this board, I can assure you that my insights on operations, clubhouse, function, food & beverage, and construction methods are far enough from mainstream to just maybe include some good ideas. As for this thread in particular, I was pretty close to posting a fantastic set of sheets for pro formaing a biz plan for golf that any of you could try your hand at and seeing the real world consequences of your choices.

I apologize for the rant, I may be over reacting, but somebody has to start calling these jokers on this BS.

Cheers,

JT
22 days to open....

[ForkaB]

Jim

As one who is occasionally subject to pricktitudinousness, please let me defend mr. keller.  All he said (as I can see) is that it was at the very least disingenuous for Mr. Klein to trash the idea of proformas in one paragraph whilst touting such (in the context of promoting his new book) in the next.

Anybody who has spent any time in financial analysis knows that the phrase "all other things being equal" (or its equivalent) is just a cop out for "I am either ignorant of the 'facts' or don't have the balls to tell you what I really think."

I, personally, would like to learn what you (and others with direct experience) have to teach in this matter.  Why, for example, might there be this 10-fold variance in costs that Brad intimates?  This seems either reckless (from the point of view of the developer) or underinformed (to the analyst) to me.

Rich

PS--all the best of luck with your venture.

[TEPaul]

rgkeller;

It seems to me, supported by a few things you've actually said yourself on here, that your primary interest in your post contributions to this website is to simply prick, tweak and poke fun at most of the threads, subjects and opinions on this website. If that's true, I feel you should think of another way of going about contributing posts on here, or alternatively get off this website or get thrown off it.

There's nothing at all wrong with all kinds of diverse opinions on here on all things architectural, maintenance, whatever---it's probably healthier and more productive that way and I'm sure you can offer that. You should just try and to do it in a less snide and more mature way.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

One of the problems with comparing operations is that each club may account differently for each line item.

Some allocate certain expenses to a paricular department, while others shift those same costs to other departments or the club in general.

When we tried to make a study, a comparison between other clubs we were frustrated because of these differences.

For example, a simple matter of electricity.
Does each department get billed it's share, greens, tennis, house, etc., etc.. or does it become a general expense of the club

Each line item seems to get tweaked by each club.

The other problem you have is in your greens budget, operating and capital.  If a club has been behind in its capital expenses, operating repairs on equipment will usually be higher due to the age of the equipment.

In addition, each course has its unique soil, agronomic, architectural and micro climate issues, so how do you compare operating costs, including chemicals, fertilizers, etc. etc..

Comparisons, if they could be uniform, might be beneficial from a general, observatory perspective, but they can also be dangerous in that the unique and specific needs of a club can be harmed by that comparison.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Although I lack the omniscient status of some of the members of this board,

JT
22 days to open....

Jim,

Refresh my memory. You and your family are building a golf course. You and your family have your own capital at risk in building this course. Sounds to me like you are in the top 1% on this board.

By the way, how far are you from Notre Dame? Someday I would like to do a Warren Course @ ND, BC vs Notre Dame football game and Angels Crossing MidWest swing.

Thanks

[ForkaB]

Pat

Why do you direct your questions towards me.

As a one time Finance chairman of a golf club, with an MBA in Finance from a leading Eastern Business School, and 30+ years of strategic and financial analysis behind me (including even some real, proper bean counting in my early days), I know all that stuff, and far too much more.

Let me know if you need any pointers on these issues some day.  It sounds like more than a few of the clubs you are affiliated with might need it!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

All the clubs I've ever been affiliated with could use your service.

The problem is, as astute and prudent as your advice might be, take comfort in the fact that it wouldn't be accepted  

[Jim Thompson]

Mike,

You are extremely kind!  We are just individuals trying to do the best thing for our community and golf just happens to be a part of the opportunity as it presented itself.  We are extremely fortunate to be blessed with like minded participants in our venture, who are also on board to in essence, do the right thing.

Notre Dame Stadium is 1hr and 20minutes on game day if you plan a 4 hour tailgate.

Rich,

I can tell you of item after item in our project that came in on bid or inquiry with costs that ranged by as much as a multiple of ten.  The first that comes to mind that is very common on all golf jobs is 4" black perforated drainage tile.  Our prices ranged from $1.38 to $x.14 per linear foot.  

Silt fence is also common on most jobs.  After seeing the cost on most of the construction bids we got out the welder and four field shovels off a agricultural chisel plow and fabricated a unit that attached to the end of a dozer blade.  Cost - shovels were free - 3" square steel tubing was scrap free - and about sixteen spot welds and a four foot chunk of chain - $25. We figured we got the linear cost of silt fence install under $x.30 per linear foot.

The mechanics lift in our shop is another, we ended up buying a full blown 10,000 lbs. automotive lift for less than a quarter of the 6,500 lbs. "golf lift".  We did have to fabricate our own set rack which cost us about $35 dollars worth of stock steel and two welding rods.

The list is almost endless.  from buying large equipment rather than renting and reselling at end of use to running onsite screening operations for soil mixes.  Oh yeah, if you can find a 22 year old college student who grew up on a dairy farm, hire him for install.  His work ethic and mechanical skill will be the biggest cost saver you can get.  Throw in 3 more farm kids and you're off to the races.  

Simply put - The only reason developers pay what the do for a course is because they can, not because they have to.

As for club accounting, welcome to the highest level of financial CYA in the world.  When it comes to outings, many times the Pro sets up the outing and rings the days as golf 100% with the outing discount going to F&B.  Or if the F&B manager enters the days sales food is entered at full price and golf is discounted to the gills.  Oh yeah, don't forget that this will lead to the gratuity being hire and the F&B staff ooing and ahing over the Manager on Duty.  Many F&B operations have their portion of Property Taxes laid on the Golf because the administrator knows F&B is a loser in a public club.  Even the utility and phone bills are often mis allocated to "spread" costs.  I have never seen an allocation method that couldn't be justified and conflicted at the same time.

As for comparatives I would suggest breaking operations into two qualifying criteria:  A- Private Club, Country Club, Golf Club, Golf Course, and Municipal and B- construct a "zone approach"  that groups clubs by season length and condition similar to planting and growing zones.

In General,

Clubs that are to common will lack the nitch factor needed to make them profitable.  To perform well in any endeavor the question has to be "how are you special" rather than "how are you the common".  CYA disease is also the greatest contributor to cost overruns and lackluster product in this industry.  Freeing the creative artists within your vision should be the goal, not the limiting of artistic talent.

Cheers!

JT
all bunker sand in today only 7436 items on list to go

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