[Andy Silis]

Just received my copy ( Issue 7 2004 ) of the Journal of the Society of Australian Golf Course Architects. A couple of questions and observations:

1) Based on the photographs of Sutton Bay ( some of the best golf course photography I've ever seen ) Graham Marsh has elevated himself in my eyes to one of the architects whose work I will try to seek out. Question: Has there been anything in his past course resume that indicated his ability to come up with something as awesome as Sutton Bay?

2) Although this Journal is international in it's scope and articles, it would really further more golfers understanding of the true nuances of great golf course architecture if we had a similar publication here in the U.S. With all of the diverse talent here on GCA maybe this site can take it further and explore the possibilities of enhancing the GCA experience with a publication similar to the Aussie one.-------Food for thought!

3) There is a great article in Issue 7 by Mike DeVries about bunker design and construction. Some fabulous before and after pics of his ongoing restoration at the Meadow Club. Question for Mike (Or anyone else----- I know he posts here occasionally ): How far along are you towards completion at the Meadow Club. I am scheduled to play there in late April. It's been about 12 years since I played there last ,and I'm excited to view and experience the changes.

Andy Silis

[Mark_Amundson]

Andy:

I have worked with Graham since 1996 in his golf course design business and am one of the original partners in Sutton Bay.  Graham has designed many quality courses around the world, and has been doing so since 1986.  Most of the courses are not well known in this country but yet they have received great reviews in the areas where they are.  Terry Hills in Sydney and the Vines Resort near Perth both hold tour events.  His first project in the US was Old Silo in Mt. Sterling, KY.  It was voted 6th best affordable daily fee by Golf Digest and we have had many people comment they think it is the best course in Kentucky.  Graham's ability as a player is well documented and I believe his ability to take the knowledge of a great player and apply it to his designs is one reason he is so good.  Another reason for his success is his willingness to spend the time required on site to get the desired results.  His commitment of time and energy at Sutton Bay was second to none.  He literally spents over 100 days on site during the summer of 2002 working hand in hand with the shapers and with a shovel and rake in his hand.  He realized the quality of the site at Sutton Bay and knew the way to get the desired result was to spend time pouring over the site and make the needed decisions at the critical times.  This is certainly not the norm these days and I believe it is the reason Sutton Bay will be well respected for years to come.

Mark Amundson

[Mike_DeVries]

Andy,

Thanks for the kudos.  

Regarding Meadow Club, we have restored 13 holes so far and are doing two more this season -- #'s 3 and 6.  #3 green is the only one on the course that was physical altered in the past and will be the biggest green project we have to do.  Next year, we will finish up with holes 7, 13, and 15.  Enjoy your visit -- it is an interesting time to see the golf course, with the restored holes providing a nice contrast to the holes yet to be done.

Mike

[Tom_Doak]

Mark, if you're still watching, I have a question:

My clients in Melbourne are the same clients who are developing the Bass Coast course which Graham Marsh is also designing.  They've told me for that one that the drawings will all be done in CAD and that the golf course will be built exactly to the plans by a contractor using GPS equipment so there will be absolutely no waste during construction.

That's wonderful, but it is certainly a different tack than spending 100 days on site with a shovel in your hand!  How is it that your company manages to take BOTH approaches?  Most of us believe in one or the other.

[Richard Chamberlain]

Tom

I think the site would help determine which method is adopted.

I would guess that sites like Barnbougle, St Andrews Beach and Sutton bay are less likely to require substantial earth being moved. (Mark, how much dirt was moved at Sutton ?)

However on some of the more recent sites my firm has worked on, there was in excess of 200,000 cubic metres moved and the client had requested that the GPS construction method be used to enable more accurate earthmoving estimates.
I would also mention that the courses are bulk shaped to the contour Digital Terrain Model but there is still a 10% adjustment for the final shaping.

Where substantial earthmoving is required I think this GPS method will be demanded much more in the near future by clients. Of course from a designers point of view, it will certainly show up any flaws in the contouring, and also show up any flaws in the site survey.


Mark,
Can you post any of the pictures of swampy with the shovel in hand. That I would like to see.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

I have the same magazine.  One thing I noticed about the pictures of Sutton Bay is that the surrounding, untouched terrain look markedly different from the golf course.  The bunker work at one time looked extraordinary, but it is often  repeated by the next great project, and it now it is becoming ordinary and boring.  Will that style soon run its course?  Who are the leaders and who are the followers?  

By the way since I know Tom is looking in on this thread, I wanted to say that the plan of Sands Point that was posted here graphically was one of the most beautiful renderings I have ever seen.  The trees were magnificent, and you could tell the renderer had much fun with the water.  It was a real work of art.

[Mark_Amundson]

Tom:

You asked about using various approaches to design.  I think the short answer to your question is that site and your client dictate various methods of design.  At Sutton Bay we were our own clients and we did not try and quantify earthworks for billing etc. Our goal was to put the golf where it fit most naturally.  The site was the type of site that required Graham's time because there were constantly decisions needing to be made by him.  I do believe an architect can use the hands on method and the CAD method and be successful with both.

Mark Amundson

[Tom_Doak]

Kelly:

The rendering was done by Don Placek, whom you met at Stonewall.  I'll be sure to pass on your compliments.  He does love the work, and it shows.

Richard and Mark:

We do detailed contour drawings for big earthmoving projects, too -- the job we're planning in Palm Desert has so many grading lines I can't look at it for too long without getting a headache!

But we would never tell a client that a contractor could just take that drawing and feed it into a machine and wind up with a great golf course.  I believe strongly that ALL sites are "the type of site that required [the architect's] time because there were constantly decisions needing to be made by him."  Do you feel the same way, or not?

I'm asking because these two approaches are more than methods ... they're the two main sales pitches given to clients to sell courses nowadays, and they're the two stories given to raters and enthusiasts over how things were built.   I've never heard anyone who wanted to have it both ways before.  Jim Engh and Art Hills don't pose for photos with shovels in their hands, and I don't talk about CAD even when we use it.

[Tom_Doak]

P.S.  I hope this doesn't mean I won't be welcome to visit Sutton Bay.  Everything I've heard about it has been glowing, and I ought to be able to get up there this summer while we're building our course in NE Colorado.

[Richard Chamberlain]

I'm not saying for two seconds that a layout can be designed, fed into a cad system and a terrain model fed into a GPS system to produce a magnificent result without the personal touch of the designer on site.
I think that providing the designer has a good visualisation for the contours he draws, the GPS is best used for bulk earthworks. We're currently having our first crack at GPS construction methods and handover will be +/- 100mm. I mentioned that there would need to be a 10% factor for on site tweaking. Of course, this might actually be 20% and may be as low as a couple of percent.

If a client wants an estimate of how much earth is to be moved, surely a cad model constructed to within 10% of the design contours is better than a lot of arm waving on site.

I think the key to the whole process is the designer having the ability to be confident of his contouring. If a GPS dozer produces the course within a few mm of the design data and it looks horrendous, its a useless system.

[Andy Silis]

Kelly!


I for one hope that the bunker style at Sutton Bay dosn't become passe or out of favor. I recognize the need for the existence of different bunker styles befitting the various landforms and terrain encountered on sites worldwide. Above all bunkers and their surrounds should look natural and blend into and enhance the existing landscape of the site. That said, I feel that the bunker style exemplified by Doak, C&C, DeVries, Hanse etc. is not only a return to golf course architecture's classic roots but a form of art that is practiced all too infrequently in modern architecture today. Like a fine Monet, it's style may be similar but each "painting" has it's unique flow and the nuances and subtelties of the form are what create a "masterpiece"!!

By the way, from what I've seen of your work ( pictures only I'm afraid ) I feel that you also have bunkers that reflect an understanding of the terrain and surrounds.They seem to be both properly strategic as well as visually enhancing and thus adding to the overall experience. Great golf course architecture should challenge us as well as stir our soul artistically!!!

Andy Silis

[cary lichtenstein]

If possible, could someone please post the pictures for all of us to enjoy.

[Mark_Amundson]

Tom:

You are always welcome at Sutton Bay and I do hope you can make it out and have a look.  I have no problem with people speaking their mind, I do it all the time.  I do not think it is bad to practice design using a variety of methods and we are very up front with our clients from the start.  Graham makes at least 4-8 visits on every project, no matter where in the world it is, and numerous other visits are made by David Ireland, the senior architect in Graham's office.  Graham is intricately involved in all decisions made on all projects.  I think having the flexibility to work using multiple tecxhniques is positive and I do not feel that being up front with people is a bad thing.  The final product, a great golf course and one that meets the client's objectives, is in the end what matters most.

Mark Amundson

[Mark_Amundson]

Cary:

If you go to www.suttonbay.com and use the password sbclub you can see a number of pictures of the course.  There have been others posted on this site in the past by Dick Daley.

[Scott_Burroughs]

If Mark doesn't mind:



#1:


#2:

#3:

#4:

#6:

#7:

#9:

#10:

#11:

#12:

#13:

#14 (nice skyline green):

#15:


#16 (same as on Links magazine and GC Architecture):


#17:


#18:


I'm impressed.  

[Rick Shefchik]

These photos won't rival those from Sutton Bay, but here's another example of Graham Marsh's work: Wild Marsh in Buffalo, Minn.

Marsh took an existing course and redesigned it in 2000, building holes around two lakes and numerous marshes. There's a little of everything here -- heavily wooded areas, hills, houses, forced carries, doglegs and multi-tiered greens. Given the course's original incarnation, it's hard to get a fix on Marsh's style from playing Wild Marsh.

If you can't get your ball in the air off the tee, you're going to have trouble on holes 6

 and 12 (the tee is out of the picture to the right)

 and I thought the sixth green was too severe from back to front. Otherwise I thought Wild Marsh was intelligently routed and bunkered and fun to play.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Mark,

Wow, I had never gotten further into the website than the opening page as I didnt have a password, so I had not seen all these images (which I now see Scott has posted here).

I was looking forward to getting home to SD to hopefully see SB before, now I am really salivating thinking about it.

I hope I can make it work.

Daryl

[cary lichtenstein]

I am seriously impressed

[JakaB]

I have the same magazine.  One thing I noticed about the pictures of Sutton Bay is that the surrounding, untouched terrain look markedly different from the golf course.  The bunker work at one time looked extraordinary, but it is often  repeated by the next great project, and it now it is becoming ordinary and boring.  Will that style soon run its course?  Who are the leaders and who are the followers?  

How did this statement by a Kelly go ignored...is the truth too much for you guys to discuss.  It is a fad I say..

[Tom_Doak]

John:

Okay, I won't ignore it.

In general I think Kelly is right; there are too many architects now building flashy bunkers, and I for one am getting sick of seeing them.

But I don't think he is right to single out Sutton Bay.  The surrounding landscape is steep and rocky; if they don't spend money irrigating it, it appears that the natural grasses become very thick and unplayable (once the cattle are off).  So, I think it was a good decision to build a fair number of very large bunkers as a buffer between the playable and the unplayable.  I suppose they could have opted for big and rectangular Seth Raynor bunkers, but I don't think it would have looked as good in that landscape as what they've done.  Perhaps someone else here could prepare some sketches of something more in harmony?  In the meantime I'll say I think the golf course is quite beautiful.

One interesting fact of many of the newer and striking courses (Sand Hills, Sutton Bay, Cape Kidnappers, The National of Australia, St. Andrews Beach) is that before golf they were being grazed by sheep or cattle or horses, and grazed down they all had a wonderfully different look.  But as soon as you fence off the animals you get that long grass "look" which I think Kelly is objecting to more than the bunkers.

I really think Cape Kidnappers would have looked better and played better if we could have left the sheep out there.  Unfortunately, though, I have yet to find any of these clients who are willing to build a high-end course and then tell the members (or paying guests) to watch out for the sheep dip!

[JakaB]

In general I think Kelly is right; there are too many architects now building flashy bunkers, and I for one am getting sick of seeing them.

Thank you Tom...it feels great to know I'm not alone on that one.  btw...I was at a funeral yesterday and a guy leaned over and said.."We need to go over and play Quail Crossing, I here that Tom Doak is a pretty good architect."   Thanks again.

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