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T_MacWood

Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« on: March 26, 2004, 07:39:27 AM »
Why didn't Dick Wilson join the ASGCA?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2004, 07:39:46 AM by Tom MacWood »

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2004, 07:52:09 AM »
I would contact Robert von Hagge at 281/376-8282 and ask him.  I think he is the only living architect that worked for Dick Wilson.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2004, 08:56:31 AM »
Because RTJ was a founding member?

ian

Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2004, 08:59:56 AM »
Did you know Joe Lee applied once, was defered or turned down (hard to believe isn't it), and refused to apply again.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2004, 09:24:44 AM »
Sorry to hijack, but can some of the esteemed members give a poor ignorant outsider some insight into the benefits of memebership?

And, the area I really want to know about is political action. Has there been any attempt to lobby?

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2004, 11:01:46 AM »
"Esteemed"? That's very kind.

I would describe the benefits of being a member as having an opportunity — and also an obligation — to speak with other golf course architects about the profession, designs and our experiences. When we gather for meetings there is a constant flow of information from one professional to another, often entire bars and lobbies full of architects discussing their latest work, construction techniques, the work of specific shapers, ideas, etc.

Adam — I would guess that some of the terrific features of Piρon Hills were inspired — at least in part — through Ken Dye's participation with other architects, seeing their work, and visiting courses where ASGCA members have gathered to study outstanding examples of golf course design.

I cannot think of any profession — especially one involving design — where it is not an excellent idea to have an organization made up of professionals who come together and share thoughts and study their craft all at one gathering.

This thread centers on why one architect did not eventually become a member. I do not know the answer. I have heard of applicants who fail to be accepted for valid reasons (not enough work at the time of application, projects that do not qualify, etc.) and then they never apply again. Maybe they hold a grudge for being denied; or perhaps they just figure that they don't need to be a member and will not get enought out of it.

That last statement might sum up my feelings best: It isn't at all about what you get out of a professional organization...but, rather, what you contribute back to it — and the young members who will follow.


« Last Edit: March 26, 2004, 11:02:20 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2004, 11:34:51 AM »
Adam,

To me, the benefits of ASGCA are mostly in playing great courses old and new that I would have trouble accessing otherwise.  Playing those courses is a benefit which has furthered my design perceptions and abilities.  In short, it’s a golf club atlas, but in person, and with guys/gals having opinions based on doing the work for real!

We also have formal seminars at the annual meetings on related design topics, that are not always sexy (i.e. permitting, insurance and business practices, etc.) but necessary.  It’s also about hanging with a great group of people, and learning informally from their comments in meetings, or in the bar!  

•   Pete Dye, for instance, told me what per cent of slope on a green he considers pinnable (2.25%).  My associate Eric Nelson was treated to playing with Pete at Prestwick, and got the whole story of exactly what ideas he brought back from there (Everyone was doing curves.  When he saw the ditch on 18, he knew he could be different if he only did straight lines…..)
•   Tom Marzolf told me how they cut the cups at Augusta for the tournament,
•   Rees Jones answered questions about tournament set ups
•   Fazio shared tips on building a budget course (just kidding here)
•   Lots of older members, like Larry Packard, have told wonderful old stories, which give me a sense of how the profession evolved.
•   Damian Pascusso shared some ideas on the how to’s of selling master plans to clubs, etc.
•   Brian Silva once shared his experience in working in solid rock, which came in helpful later, when I finally got a ledge rock job.
•   Almost any member can give me tremendous insight through an off hand comment while playing a great course.  I remember Bruce Borland explaining some things about the Nicklaus bunker philosophy. Actually, I was able to ask Jack about his bunker philosophy and also some specific things about the whys and wherefores of designing Muirfield Village.

And of course, they all learn from me, too, although usually in the “how not to do it” category!

As a group, we have lobbied to exclude golf design from various state landscape architecture licensing arrangements, thus preserving the rights of a Pete Dye or Jack Nicklaus to practice the craft without formal training.  We have assisted in setting up environmental conferences, and also meet regularly with the EPA on matters pertaining to permitting golf courses, etc.

Beyond that, members do get some job leads, standard contracts, media exposure, etc. as part of their benefits.

But mostly, I consider the best benefit is playing the courses we play, and associating with the best architects in the world to discuss things of mutual interest.  

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

A_Clay_Man

Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2004, 11:58:09 AM »
Thanx guys!

Forrest- It's been obvious to me that Ken Dye drew on several genres to create PH, how he was able to do it, on that budget, is truely amazing. As was your work in Monticello.

The political action committee, is one of the areas that "Golf" needs to focus on. With all the mis-perception that float around today, all time and monies spent, should help, the education, the perception and the future reality. Not too mention, how easy it is to entertain on a golf course. ;)

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2004, 05:17:02 PM »
Adam — Thanks for the kind words about The Hideout.

I was assisted by fellow ASGCA members on various aspects of this work. I recall encouragement, tips on dealing with the Army Corps of Engineers and advice about shapers who I'd be working with that I had not previously known.

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

ian

Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2004, 07:17:29 PM »
Adam,

Most architects are suprisingly candid on explaining ideas, and offering excellent advice on how to deal with different situations. Many of us are very close friends, despite being competitors.

Tom,

I realized that I did not offer you an answer, I would bet it had a lot to do with his main competitor.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2004, 07:19:27 PM by Ian Andrew »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2004, 08:16:28 PM »
ASGCA Member Forrest Richardson says:
Quote
I would describe the benefits of being a member as having an opportunity — and also an obligation — to speak with other golf course architects about the profession, designs and our experiences. When we gather for meetings there is a constant flow of information from one professional to another, often entire bars and lobbies full of architects discussing their latest work, construction techniques, the work of specific shapers, ideas, etc.

I wonder what SOCIETY Allison, Bendelow, Braid, Colt, Fowler, Fownes, MacDonald, MacKenzie, Morris, Raynor, Ross, Thomas, Tillinghast, Wilson and others had to fall back on, and if they were required to dress in plaid, in public? ;D

ASGCA Member Jeff Brauer says:

Quote
To me, the benefits of ASGCA are mostly in playing great courses old and new that I would have trouble accessing otherwise.  Playing those courses is a benefit which has furthered my design perceptions and abilities.  In short, it’s a golf club atlas, but in person, and with guys/gals having opinions based on doing the work for real!

So Jeff, its an access "thing" correct? Why not just join one of the many magazine panels out there and also get to vote on one of your own courses like Rees Jones has! ;D

Now all of the joking aside, there is not that much wrong with the Society today, they have certainly gone out of there way to accept certain parties they wouldn't have even batted an eye at before. At one time they were pretty exclusionary.

I never knew about Joe Lee or Dick Wilson! WOW! Talk about dropping the ball!


« Last Edit: March 26, 2004, 08:27:01 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2004, 08:18:12 PM »
Also, I meant to ask some of you more astute ASGCA members if you noticed any similarities to the way the ASGCA is run, to Scientology. If this would be correct, who would be the L. Ron Hubbard of ASGCA member architects?

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2004, 08:35:44 PM »
What was the ASGCA when Wilson died?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2004, 08:45:22 PM »
Willie, As far as I know, the ASGCA has always been the ASGCA, but of course I have calld them all sorts of things in my quest of architectural knowledge.

That being, how are things in Vero Beach? How are my Dodgers looking?  Don't forget to bring home that Wicker! Its mine! :)

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2004, 11:04:40 PM »
Allison, Bendelow, Braid, Colt, Fowler, Fownes, MacDonald, MacKenzie, Morris, Raynor, Ross, Thomas, Tillinghast, Wilson all mentored architects who went on to become members, or men who later mentor their own set of future ASGCA or British members.

Certainly when Fownes — for example — was working on "his" Oakmont, there was no reason nor quantity of architects to justify a society. Nor, of course, was Fownes interested in much of anything except "his" Oakmont.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2004, 11:05:46 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2004, 11:28:00 PM »
Yes, but who did they receive their mentoring from, or is it just fashionable for modern day architects to discount them?

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2004, 12:08:37 AM »
I believe most of the men you mention took their inspiration from the linksland courses of Scotland, laid out not so much by men, but by a natural progression. The courses they studied were not so much "works of art" to be preserved, but rather they were works in progress, changed many times in a tinkering process of addition, transformation, tweaking and outright replacement.

This, of course, is unlike today when we tend to take our inspiration from past work, very often landing upon a set place in history — and calling this comfort zone "OK and acceptable, let's call this particular spot in time a happy place and let's go about our work as if it had been inspired by the people of this day and time, and this short span of time only."

I don't think there are many living architects who discount the men you mention.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2004, 12:12:14 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2004, 03:11:25 AM »
Forrest,
I think it was Tom Fazio that said, "There is no such thing as a Classic Golf course. Classic courses are being built now. This is the Golden Age of Golf."  (or something to that affect.)

-Also, when you state "these gentlemen" (that I have mentioned) how did they learned from the natural lay of the land of links, and how then did their predecessors: the original course architects of the 19th century, fail so badly when it came to building links inland?

-Who taught Harry Colt and others to understand that Nature was what needed to be emulated, not linksland?

-Wouldn't they have to come to know and recognized strategies that weren't provided by fairways that were shaped by receeding waters?  

-Why then do so many designers today fail in this regard, when it comes to designing fairways that are prevailant to the strategies?

-Why do they manufacture natural surroundings when they don't need to, or more concise, why do they frame?

-Did Links courses inspire them to frame?

-Did Links courses teach them how to contain the golfer to boredom?

-Did John Fitzgerald Kennedy sleep with Marilyn Monroe?

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2004, 07:26:34 AM »
Tommy:

They learned from the natural lay of the land; their predecessors did as well.

Don't know.

No "one".

I don't think they do "fail". All golf holes are strategic — some more than others.

Building and changing is man's nature. "Framing" is misunderstood. I'll not explain it to you...don't have to...wouldn't get through anyway.

No.

No.

Whether they got any sleep is the real question.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2004, 07:27:14 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2004, 10:35:35 AM »
Forrest, Thanks so much for answering. But how come so many Modern Architects don't learn from the land?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2004, 12:31:59 PM »
Tommy,

If I was on a panel, I would not vote for my own courses.  This is topic drift, but probably worth discussing whether architects (not evaluating their own courses) would make the best or worst golf course raters.....I think I could be honest, and not downgrade a nearby competitor, but not many architects are asked to serve, I think.

ASGCA was formed in 1947, and has had no other name.

In design, I try to listen to the land.  That has always worked very well for me, with the exception of  my limited foreign work, where I couldn't understand a thing the land was saying, and in the deep south, where it spoke in a slow drawl, and the design process simply took longer.........

More seriously, the long evolution of technology simply makes it less important to do so.......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

ian

Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2004, 02:03:02 PM »
Tommy,

I'm not sure why you have such a problem with the ASGCA. Did they exclude somebody that you like? You surely can't blaim the organization for the architects work that you don't like.

The architects choose to create an association, how can this be bad? I'm dying to find out why.

Perhaps you should put a call into Gil Hanse or Bill Coore and question them on why they joined.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2004, 03:12:39 PM »
Ian,
How long did it take, as well as who took the initial steps to allow guys like Bill Coore and Gil Hanse, into "the club," and just why do you think they joined? Please tell me you don't think that Bill Coore is the type of guy that has spent a career wanting to wear a plaid jacket? ? ?

Ask them both, and they'll tell you how I BEGGED them not to join, because they don't need a Society that will recognize Jackie II as a golf architect, but yet won't recognize the others who are actually doing the work for him.  Why is it now after all of these years that Bill Coore's, the Gil Hanse's, the Tom Doak's and others are finally being recognized as viable candidates as members?

What about the GREAT Tom Fazio? When was the last time he attended an ASGCA meeting? How many meetings has Jack Nicklaus attended since he joined?

How many architects have wanted to join the ASGCA but couldn't because another architect  had a gripe about a candidate architect that may have won a job over them?

Don't get me wrong, I applaude the efforts of Dana Fry, Dr. Mike, Pete & Alice Dye and even Jeff Brauer who have spent coutless hours in service trying to make the ASGCA a better organization, especially for limiting themselves to only those special few "good ol' boys."

Jeff,
So does this mean that Giant's Ridge is the type of course that posses that Nordic/Viking mentality of take no prisoners? :)

Jeff, long ago, I have stated that the best raters would be certain types of architects and construction guys that knew good work when they saw it simply because they knew that nature won out over technology, or at least was so well disguised that technology embraced nature. This is why your last statement, More seriously, the long evolution of technology simply makes it less important to do so......., disappoints me so.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2004, 04:42:46 PM »
Ian,
How long did it take, as well as who took the initial steps to allow guys like Bill Coore and Gil Hanse, into "the club," and just why do you think they joined? Please tell me you don't think that Bill Coore is the type of guy that has spent a career wanting to wear a plaid jacket? ? ?

Tommy,

I was membership chair and talked to Bill Coore, although I think he contacted me first, and also had talked to others before getting the application.  Since he took the time to fill out the application, I can assume he wanted to be a member, if not a lifetime (to specifically answer your question, then at least for some time) and has been an active member, which is further proof that he sees some advantages in being in ASGCA.

Sorry to dissapoint, but I do have a keen grip of the obvious, and I am doubting yours, ever so slightly! ;D

Ask them both, and they'll tell you how I BEGGED them not to join, because they don't need a Society that will recognize Jackie II as a golf architect, but yet won't recognize the others who are actually doing the work for him.  Why is it now after all of these years that Bill Coore's, the Gil Hanse's, the Tom Doak's and others are finally being recognized as viable candidates as members?

Again referring to Bill Coore, he simply had to wait to get five new courses on his resume to apply.  Their method of one course at a time, plus the signifgant percentage of remodels meant that took awhile to get in. Ditto for Hanse.

Doak hasn't applied. ASGCA doesn't recruit members, it accepts applications.  We won't change for anyone, and everyone goes through the same process.  Ditto for the minimum number of courses - a relatively attainable 5.  We have to have some standards, and that seems fair enough.  Finished work is the guide as to whether someone is working actively in the industry.

What about the GREAT Tom Fazio? When was the last time he attended an ASGCA meeting? How many meetings has Jack Nicklaus attended since he joined?

We require that all members attend at least every third meeting.  Tom has been active forever, and Jack has been unbelilevalbly gracious in both coming to meetings, and doing other things for the group, including seminars for the members, hosting an event at MV, and doing media things.  As President in 95-96 I asked him to do his first seminar, and he couldn't have been better, or better prepared.

So, your implication that they don't participate is flat out wrong.

How many architects have wanted to join the ASGCA but couldn't because another architect  had a gripe about a candidate architect that may have won a job over them?

I don't have exact numbers, but will grant it has happened.  We have been expanding the membership review process over the last 15 years to avoid the possibility of one member torpedoing an applicant.  And, in a group of intelligent people, within a small industry, if someone stood up with a trumped up concern that he couldn't substantiate, I think we could tell that, and vote on the merits.  I have seen it happen many times, where one members objections are easily overridden by the vote of the members.

Actually, as on of those intelligent members, I slightly resent the implication that I, or my peers couldn't easily make such a distinction. >:(

To answer your first question, the process does take about a year, and possibly  more if any question not answered by the membership chair, executive committee interview, applicant sponsor, or applicant's course evaluators comes up in the process.  Then, the applicant is tabled, and must answer whatever questions come up before the vote next year.


Don't get me wrong, I applaude the efforts of Dana Fry, Dr. Mike, Pete & Alice Dye and even Jeff Brauer who have spent coutless hours in service trying to make the ASGCA a better organization, especially for limiting themselves to only those special few "good ol' boys."

Even Jeff Brauer? :o  Thanks, Tommy! ~ 8)

Jeff,
So does this mean that Giant's Ridge is the type of course that posses that Nordic/Viking mentality of take no prisoners? :)

Jeff, long ago, I have stated that the best raters would be certain types of architects and construction guys that knew good work when they saw it simply because they knew that nature won out over technology, or at least was so well disguised that technology embraced nature. This is why your last statement, More seriously, the long evolution of technology simply makes it less important to do so......., disappoints me so.

Certain types of architects?  Tommy, you would be a worse dictator as to keeping out architects as anyone we ever had in the ASGCA.  You really have to accept a broad range of architectural opinions and styles to have the strongest group....

Lastly, again sorry to dissapoint, but technology does change things in every field.  Or do you still install the kite string and key favored by Ben Franklin?  Again, you can't say I don't have  a keen grip of the obvious!

Pat Mucci, how do you do the bold type between the quotes?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

ian

Re:Dick Wilson and the ASGCA
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2004, 06:12:21 PM »
Tommy,

I think you would be suprised how easily the guys, "who build it in the field", got in. Dana, Bill, Gil, Todd, all got in without any deferment.

A couple of high profile members have said that once Tom Doak chooses to apply, he will be a member. From what I understand, he simply has not choosen to apply.

I don't think it matters whether an architect is a member, or is not. They are still judged on what they build, not what membership they have.

You seem have an agenda, which is your business, but I still think your anger is directed in the wrong place.

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