[TEPaul]

Following some dynamic discussion on another thread or two I thought it might be an interesting and educational idea to somehow include on GOLFCLUBATLAS a "GREEN COMMITTEE" section!


Here's why. A lot of us on here have served and do serve on Green Committees. In a real sense green committees control what happens at golf courses and historically Green Committees have bad reputations. But also in a real sense Green Committees eventually have to be responsive to general memberships. A lot of strange things happen to golf courses due to Green Committees. There's a lot of necessary politics that flow through Green Committees for all kinds of reasons.

Some on here don't give a damn about green committees for purist or whatever reasons. But there's no way around green committees for those who belong to clubs and have to deal with them and the general memberships of clubs.

I thought it might be an interesting idea to create on here a "Green Committee" section so our regular contributors, some of whom don't even belong to golf clubs and others who've never been on a green commmittee and have never had to deal with the dynamics of one can really see what happens in the green committees of so many clubs.

And on the other hand, so those who come on here who've been through the dynamics of the green committee structure  can share with those who never have been on one or who might not understand the way they are can see what it's all about.

I think, if a section like this works well, a lot might be learned from a couple of points of view!

We, on Golfclubatlas might learn something and those on green committees out there might learn something from us!

[corey miller]

I think this could be an important new section on this website.  Most of the people on these committees are well meaning but have not been exposed to a lot of the ideas that are bandied about on this site.  It has a chance to be a real educational resource and perhaps could have a positive affect on clubs that may be contemplating major changes.

It would of course be a help on the more "minor" issues that affect playability greatly such as watering, fairway mowing patterns, green shrinkage, and the tree issue.

There is really great information on this site.  I have tried to get a few decision makers in my club to browse here, but that is difficult when many of the threads do not pertain too anything they would possible care about.  This will help especially if it can become a constructive resource.

[Neal_Meagher]

BRAVO! Wonderful idea Mr. Paul, simply marvelous.

I can think of not one single thing that GolfClubAtlas.com could do that would make a difference more than doing what you suggest.

You are right, there is a lot to be gleaned from these discussions, and to put them into one easy to reach place would enable past, present and future green committee members the opportunity to learn more about what other clubs have done or are doing.

We go about our pedantic discussions as though everybody is on the same wavelength, while in fact, nothing is further from the truth.  Like Gib said in another post, upon the occasion of reconstructing Olympic's Ocean course, there was a very real opportunity to revisit some of Rayor's thought's for a Lido of the West.  The answer of the GM of "Who is Seth Raynor?" says much about the challenges facing club's with a certain pedigree and also those without such a pedigree.

I have also tried to gently guide some clients toward this site so that they can be coaxed into some deeper thinking and then, hopefully, influence the others on their committee into a similar level of research and understanding.  This is a difficult undertaking given the 328 or so pages that one would have to trundle through to get at an answer.

I, for one, believe that this idea has great merit and that Mr. Morrissett should seriously consider it as a worthy addition to that toolbar on the left.

[cary lichtenstein]

I want a subsection where we can all tell our past stories of how stubborn, uninformed chairmen have done somethings that belong in Ripley's Believe it or Not.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

This is a wonderful idea.  I have had the misfortune of watching the Max Behr course across the street from my parents house butchered by an ignorant commitee.  (I am not a member unfortunately).  I've made suggestions over the years, but there has not been enough readily available information for greens members to act upon.  The latest architectural firm ( whom no one seems to be able to name), did a great job of selling the club on the idea of visually appealing bunkers and better framing of the 13th fairway--not to mention a substantial amount of masonry.  A section about greens commitee issues, functions, responsibilities, and interesting experiences could help another club escape ruination or better yet, become the great facility that memberships almost always are striving to achieve.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

As we've discussed many times, this makes a great deal of sense.

Like it or not, green committees control the fate of the architecture at most golf courses, and having a section on this site that can serve as an important resource could be invalueable.

[paul cowley]

.....i just want to know who's gonna chair the green committee committee ?....this should be fun to watch  

[wsmorrison]

So it be written, so let it be done.  This is a wonderful idea Tom as it aspires to the best this website can be.  The disemination of knowledge and examples of its practical application is one of the great gifts this site can provide (along with meeting some truly great people).

[SJ_McCarthy]

Pat,

I think there should be no formal "committies", rather a greens "chair" and that is it.

Typically committies are stacked with people who think they understand architecture, think they know what is best for the course or think they understand the science of turf grass.  In reality what the majority of these committie memebers know is what THEY want and what THEIR game needs from the course.

To answer your specific post, I do not agree that we as members of clubs should have to "like it or not".  At the end of the day the members are either partners, owners or at minimum, just members of clubs and as a group have the ability to determine their own future and fate should they take the time to organize themselves for the better of the course / club.

TEPaul,

As we've discussed many times, this makes a great deal of sense.

Like it or not, green committees control the fate of the architecture at most golf courses, and having a section on this site that can serve as an important resource could be invalueable.

[David Wigler]

Tom,

Given my great respect for you, the following is no small compliment but this may be the single best GCA idea you have had.  I would absolutely love the ideas and feedback this forum would provide.

[A_Clay_Man]

David Wigler- Nothing could top the "IMM".

Tp- Assuming you've discussed this with Ran, all I'd reccommend is making the name sound less enviro-nazi and more educational. Such as "Green Committees Q & A's"

[Evan Fleisher]

Tom,

I also love the idea and would welcome the ability to share information and ideas on the subject.

Although not currently on our green committee, I have volunteered my services and hope to be asked shortly.

[SL_Solow]

Long time green chairman.  Happy to contribute; happier to learn.

[TEPaul]

I haven't actually checked with Ran about this idea. Last time I talked to him (about three weeks ago) we were talking about the green committee of a certain golf club and the interest they've apparently taken in this site recently.

I just said to him that that kind of thing was what I always hoped for with GOLFCLUBATLAS.com and that I hoped many more clubs would do that. Obviously Ran likes that idea.

But I'm sure he'll see this thread after a while and comment on the idea or the possibilty of it. Maybe part of the reason I thought of this last night was I'd been to a green committee meeting recently and gave it's report to the board last night and earlier in the day met with a bunch of people (impressive ones by the way) from Tavistock who're launching into a restoration of their Alex Findlay course and they wanted to collaborate with us following our restoration with Gil Hanse.

There's nothing I like more and want to encourage more than real on-going collaboration between clubs particularly those interested in restoration. Part of that collaboration yesterday involved details of architecture but a larger part was about how to deal with the membership and presenting the master plan/restoration (Ron Forse) to them. Obviously that sort of gets into what green committees do.

So I guess that got me thinking about a GOLFCLUBATLAS.com "GREEN COMMITTEE" section on here. That to me is just another form of collaboration! But the flip side of the coin would be for those of our contributors out there who've never been on a green committee to understand better how they generally work--the dynamics of them and why certain things happen at clubs and on courses that many on here don't understand and certainly don't agree with.

The subject of golf architecture is one thing but in reality it never happens in a vacuum in any club---you have to deal with the people too---there's no earthly way around it and there never will be.

Potentially a section like this could be a real TWO WAY education, in my mind!

[mike_malone]

 Tom
     I look forward to this idea.I think that being able to present a problem to this group could be fruitful.Most green cmte. issues get into the "reinventing the wheel" syndrome.So,interacting with others that confronted the same thing sounds good.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SJMcCarthy,

I've always advocated dictatorships, but, they're the exception, not the rule and difficult to create in today's club environment.

In your second paragraph you agree with me, then seem to contradict yourself in your third paragraph.

Many green committees are formulated with the intent to represent the vast cross section of the membership, so that each segment has its representation and say.
Seeds for disaster in my opinion.

I think we're on the same wave length, you just might not be as accepting as I am of the situation.

[Mike_Sweeney]

But the flip side of the coin would be for those of our contributors out there who've never been on a green committee to understand better how they generally work--the dynamics of them and why certain things happen at clubs and on courses that many on here don't understand and certainly don't agree with.

Tom,

My only suggestion would be that it the spirit of the way that Ran runs Golf Club Atlas, I think it should be open to all "Green Committees". That may be the Greens Committee at Fernandina Municipal Golf Course (probably the Manager and The Super are the Greens Committee) or Muirfield or Pine Valley's Greens Committee. Obviously the politics would be different at different levels of clubs, but the goals would appear to be similar for all.

[ForkaB]

I think this is a great idea.  Well done Tom Paul!

I would only suggest that there be some way of archiving the topics, so that if one wanted to discuss (say) transitions from fairways to bunkers, one didn't have to start a new discussion all over again, as one is usually required to do on the main DG.

[TEPaul]

MikeS;

What you say there is of course the utlimate goal--the ideal for this website if clubs like that spectrum you mentioned would come on here for whatever reason and dialogue.

I hate to say this, I really do, but part of my idea here is to over time show some of those really good golf architectural analysts out there who are regular contributors on here but who aren't familiar with the basic green committee dynamic what it really is all about in most clubs and that there's nothing much that can be done about that other than a massive and general education---and by that I mean BOTH WAYS! Obviously something like that would take a good deal of time and patience but what it really needs to happen is some global vehicle and this website just may be that vehicle or the beginnings for one. The INTERNET really is an extraordinary modern tool the ease of which never remotely existed previously.

But even on here with a section called the "GREEN COMMITTEE" there is that continuous need to control rancor and adverserialness, or those clubs will never care to participate on here no matter what the section is called.

I'm aware of a vast number of clubs who look on here and never participate and basically that's the primary reason. Of course the other reason is the site with it's multiple threads hittting the back pages daily is a little hard for those not that familiar with the site to find their way around on. A section like this can aid that tremendously, at least theoretically.

But the need for order will always be necessary just as it is in the green committee setting of most all clubs in the world! That's the part I want those who know their stuff architecturally who aren't familiar with green committee dynamics to understand better.

 

[Jonathan Davison]

I'm surprised nobody has wrote a book regarding green committees.
Titles could include ' A green committees guide to golf architecture' ?
'How to destroy your golf course'
' if in doubt plant trees'
This could include many great photos of terrible mistakes by green committees.

[Michael J. Moss]

Tom,

I, for one, would find it helpful to have a section dedicated to green committee issues.

As much as I enjoy the various discussions and debates on the web site, GCA is more important to me as an educational tool. If we view GCA as part reference library, than this would be a useful step in how it is to be organized. Being able to access backdated material easily would be a boon.

In my case, I often sent material I find here to my committee members via email. It's easy and the results can be dramatic.  Whenever the threads include images (like "before" and "after" pics following tree removal) I can get the collective lightbulbs to go on.

Trying to effect change to a golf course - any change - elicits strong emotions from club members, rightly or wrongly. A "green committee" section could be helpful in educating the status quo dissenters who resist change however beneficial.

To be able to say to members that, "We are going to make this change to our golf course and our decision is supported by what we found on GCA." lends credence.  

[Norbert P]

  Great idea Tom.  
    Would this "Greens" section welcome agronomy news and questions as well?   I tend to look for those topics but don't see them much anymore and our resident green superintendants are usually too busy, especially now that Spring has sprung, to search for those specifics.  It sure would help those with the knowledge easier access to educate those of us (me) that don't.

    Some web forums have "Topic Specific" areas for a more direct navigation to interests. Take a quick peek at ...  www.SciForums.com  

    GolfClubAtlas is time relavent and if one doesn't regularly dive in here, it's easy to get overwhelmed by too much information.

    That said, GCA is the best (existing) forum in the universe.

   

[TEPaul]

Slag:

Sure! Agronomy is most of what green committees deal with anyway. I just ran across five interconnected articles (Ron Prichard gave them to me) written by a man named Nicholas Park from the Lindrick G.C. in England that would be a blow away success for discussion on a new "GREEN COMMITTEE" section on here. The articles basically deal with British Isles golf and agronomy but in an historic sense as it might relate again today they're completely fascinating--at least they are to me---someone who doesn't know enough about golf course agronomy!

[cary lichtenstein]

This is a wonderful concept.

I hope this concept is not stiffled by protective greens superintendents.

[cary lichtenstein]

First question for this new section:

What is the proper depth of sand at the bottom of a trap, and in the face of a steep bunder?

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