[SPDB]

The replicas of famous British and Scottish golf holes (Redan, Road, Eden &c.) that appear on American courses are well documented.

But what is the most copied hole that first appeared on American soil?

I'm not certain where it first appeared, or if subsequent renditions (beside his own) can be considered "replicas" but I think it is RTJ's par 3 over the water. For better or, for worse, it seems to have been the model for countless holes.

Do you know of any others?

[Jeff Fortson]

It might not be copied in exact shape and dimension but the "Island Green" surrounded by water like #17 at TPC Sawgrass has been copied many times.


Jeff F.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

The protypical Tom Fazio "reparian creek with strategically placed faux stones, running down the length of the hole, protected by really nice looking bunkering that protects you from losing a ball in the creek to a green set from either left to right or right to left" Hole.

This is a Unique Classic Americana Replica that I look forward to playing four or five times during the round at every new Fazio course that I'm fortunate to see. (maybe a slight exageration, but close)

[Forrest Richardson]

The island green is certainly a copied "American" hole.

However, I disagree with Tommy. His example is more a flattering copy of a cape hole, perhaps one decorated to evoke a particular landscape style.

In my studies and research about routing the quintessential American design is most certainly the dog-leg par-4 around an obstacle (bunker or cluster of bunkers) and an opposite guard at the green. This formula has been copied many times over with little regard to the line of charm other than the two opposing (although distant) hazard clusters.

I would characterize the design as "Mundane Strategic". Those of you who know my summation of "strategic" will realize that I take the position that all holes are strategic, even in the absence of overt strategic qualities. I feel that shots — not holes — must be categorized as penal, heroic, lay-up, detour or open. These are the five logical categories that can yield one of 280 variations in holes when the exponential product is calculated.

American design, form many years since the 1960s, has followed the lame approach to classify holes as only "strategic", "heroic" or "penal" when this means very little when individual shots are considered.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Forrest,
Where do you get that I was mentioning anything about a Cape Hole? I was mentioning the type of hole that Tom Fazio uses OTHER then a Cape hole 4-5 times during a round!

[Forrest Richardson]

You noted an example of a hole with a hazard running the length of the hole's distance, which is largely a design solution in response to cape holes. Whether the hole you cite wraps around the hazard is another matter — the design certainly draws from famous holes which flank a body of water or other "off-limits" feature of broken ground, stream or brush.

[BCrosby]

Let's see, American classic holes would include  -

1. A green that opens up from the bail-out area.

2. In case you can't figure out where the bail out area is, bunkering that frames it for you.

3. Clockwork green bunkering. Bunkers at 10, 2, 4 and 8 set around essentially oval greens. For variety, bunkers are sometimes placed only at 4 and 8.

4. Mowed mounds that kick your ball back into the fairway.

5. 18 greens that tilt back to front, some just a teensy bit more than others.

6. Minimal fairway contouring but lots of water hazards, preferrably very close to the putting surfaces. But if you can find the bail out area (see item 1 above), the green will open up and there's no need to worry about the water. It will just be a problem for the bad golfers.

I could go on till my fingers bleed.

Bob

P.S. This sounds more cynical than I mean to be. There are an awful lot of new courses that avoid these American template holes. More power to 'em.

 

[SPDB]

The protypical Tom Fazio "reparian creek with strategically placed faux stones, running down the length of the hole, protected by really nice looking bunkering that protects you from losing a ball in the creek to a green set from either left to right or right to left" Hole.

This is a Unique Classic Americana Replica that I look forward to playing four or five times during the round at every new Fazio course that I'm fortunate to see. (maybe a slight exageration, but close)

Tommy - how about some examples of
   1. the "reparian [sic] creek" hole (a description that doesn't lend itself to anything except confusion)
   2. the hole you described, where "faux" stones are used.
   3. a course you've played that has featured it 4-5 times.
   4. instances where it has been copied by others
 
you had to know i didn't start this thread, so you could chip in your standard non-responsive gratuitous dig on Fazio. please delete the post, and replace with something thoughtful, or thought provoking.

[Forrest Richardson]

Tommy is entitled to his opinion, no matter how sacrastic or lopsided it remains.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Or accurate.

Sean, You forgot to read where I said, maybe a slight exageration, but close.

However, I have seen instances where he has used the same feature more then twice on a golf course. It wasn't meant as a dig at you either because I would be going after you more about Merion then the new work. That stuff he can dress it up and frame it in a pink tu-tu for all I care. I just wish he would live the classic stuff along with his ideaolgy of how they should play, alone.

However, this is a good topic though. One that I will find of interest because I can only think of one hole from a modern designer that I would call unique and that he has used the feature more then once. I'll let you guys figure that one out before I divulge it.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Also, Sean, If I get the time, I will fill out your list of questions too.

[ian]

Sean,

Isn't that example a Canadian origional ;

RTJ definately borrowed Thompson's concept of the heroic hole. The Devil's Cauldren would likely be a source of inspiration for him (and many of us who followed). He didn't copy the hole, but definately applied the principles.

[SPDB]

Or accurate.

Sean, You forgot to read where I said, maybe a slight exageration, but close.

I don't think its a slight exaggeration, nor do I think its close. Nor was it in anyway meant as a response to my question. Until you show me otherwise, I'll assume I am correct.

I thought my question, with reference to the US replicas of Eden, Redan, etc. made it clear that I'm not looking for holes which an architect repeats. But holes that are copies of holes designed by other architects.

p.s. I didn't think your post was a dig at me. Nor would I advise you "going after [me] more about Merion." I didn't do any work at Merion (or any other course in the world, for that matter).  

Ian - very interesting. I had forgotten about the Devil's Cauldron. Definitely an influence for RTJ's later holes, although RTJ moved the green up to the pond's edge.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean, Once again, you gotta get ya mind outta of da gutta, because I'm not mocking anything or referencing anything other then what Fazio rehashes at some of his courses out here. Thats it plain and simple.

As soon as I have some time to dig up photo references, I will do so to prove to you. Right now, time is something I don't have. If I did, I wouldn't be here right now, I would be out at Rustic Canyon on what seems to be the best day of the year so far, and tomorrow is going to be the same. So there!

Sean, do you have a sense of humor at all? Please tell me you do. I know Forrest does. A pretty dry one at that! One time he called me from the ASGCA party and as a joke--he was going to put Tom Marzloff on the phone, who happen to be sitting next to him and knew it was me he was talking to.

I found that extremely funny and judging by the laughing and the fun time it sounded like was going on, they did to!

[SPDB]

Tommy -
I have a sense of humor, and I have patience.  Your non-sequitur responses that don't serve any purpose other than to indulge a personal obsession appeal to neither.

At a restaurant, when a waiter asks what you'd like to order, do you ever respond with a stinging rebuke of Fazio's work at Inverness? And when he confusedly frowns at you, do you wonder where his sense of humor is?

I started this thread curious if there was a replica hole in America. One that is so respected that it is copied by other architects.

Forrest and Bob - I'm not really looking for an AMerican "style" which is what you're answers seem to indicate.

I've gotten 2 responses. One from Jeff, which actually answered the question and another insightful comment on my post from Ian.

Is there an American Redan? If so, where is it?

[Forrest Richardson]

I'm apparently not good at answering questions on a free forum discussion group Sorry. Call my office Monday and let's get a contract going so we can do the research and deliver a well crafted report that will meet your expectations.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean, Usually if its a waiter that knows my personality, they'll laugh everytime regardless if its funny or not--They're smart. they want a tip!

Sorry you don't get my humor. As far as non-seculars, well, like I said, I unfortunately don't have the time at the moment to produce for you the proof. But I think if you look at it subjectively enough, or if you come out here to play a few of the Fazio courses including Shadow Creek, you'll see the repetiveness of which I speak. For the money that he is geting. I would expect him to do better, and quite obviously I'm not holding my breath.

Quarry @ La Quinta #8, 9, 10 & 16
Here's 10 & 16 in the back ground.

Shadow Creek #1, 9 & 15
Here is #9 & 15


Oak Creek #15

Shady Canyon #1 & 3

Big Horn-Canyons I can't remember how many holes he has the same hole there. I can't even remember their #'s either!
The Vintage Club (Same as Big Horn-Canyons)
The Meadows At Del Mar aka Del Mar National (recent name change) #2 & 7
Bel Air #8 (Thats right, he used it there too)

This is just a few off of the top of my head.

Architects that have used the same feature-- Todd Eckenrode at Barona Creek--he even used the same sompany that builds the Fazio creeks. Uses it at holes # 6, 9, & 16.

Award Winning Architects Cal Olson, Gerald Pirkl and Ted Robinson use the same type of creeks in all of their work. they are for the most part Fazio-inspired Creeks. Schmidt & Curley are using them throughout there designs also.

Many of the courses mentioned, including used thorughout Pelican Hill and Quarry at La Quinta are vast amounts of fake stones and rocks, all manufactured and installed by either Living Waters in Brea, California--about 2 miles form where I type this as well as CRL, whcih I think is in Las Vegas or something like that. Both also do work for Disneyland.

Anything else Sean?

[ian]

Pete Dyes 18th at TPC Sawgrass got copied....well by Pete at few of his courses. Does that count?

As for a feature the "artifical" beach bunker comes to mind

[Andy Hughes]

But what is the most copied hole that first appeared on American soil?

SPDB, is the Cape Hole an American original? I seem to recall reading somewhere that CB McDonald came up with that one.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

ahughes,
Personally, I think the Cape made one its first appearances at Machrihanish #1. Many here might not agree, but I have yet to see anything in print otherwise. (I could be wrong.)

[Andy Hughes]

ahughes,
Personally, I think the Cape made one its first appearances at Machrihanish #1. Many here might not agree, but I have yet to see anything in print otherwise. (I could be wrong.)

Tommy, no, from what I read about the hole on this site, that sounds reasonable. I stand corrected. Does that hole meet the definition of a Cape Hole?  There's more to it than just the tee shot, isn't there?

[SPDB]

Tommy - You don't know how proud you just made me.  

Some may question your motives, others, your tactics. Your finished product and analysis, however, is beyond reproach.

ahughes - Tommy is right depending on what your view of a Cape hole is. Machrihanish #1 seems to be the typical Cape strategy off the tee.

But George Bahto will tell you that CBM's concept of a Cape hole involved a heroic carry to a green that jutted out into a hazard - the quintessential example is NGLA #14 (although the road forced the green inward toward the rest of the course, thus robbing it of most of its strategy). Yale #2 still retains some of the Cape green strategy, however.

My sense from the responses is that there is no American Eden, Redan or Road. I guess this thread must then give way to Tom D's "Holes that should be copied"

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean,
You do motivate me! (thanks!)

Neil Regan would be the best to tell you about Machrihanish #1--a great classic Old Tom links hole that requires a drive over the beach to the fairway, and lets not forget, it was Morris that taught MacDonald a thing or two--only MacDonald learned to do it about 200 times better, or at least more sophisticated.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

[Andy Hughes]

But George Bahto will tell you that CBM's concept of a Cape hole involved a heroic carry to a green that jutted out into a hazard - the quintessential example is NGLA #14 (although the road forced the green inward toward the rest of the course, thus robbing it of most of its strategy). Yale #2 still retains some of the Cape green strategy, however.

SPDB,
Hmm, so does that make the 1st at Macrihanish
half a Cape, and does that allow me to tell TommyN I stand only partially corrected?

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