[Patrick_Mucci]

# 3 and # 11 ?

Could regionalism and the public/resort nature of Bandon Dunes be responsible for its loftier rating ?

Could the clouds of litigation have had an influence ?

[Joel_Stewart]

# 3 and # 11 ?

Could regionalism and the public/resort nature of Bandon Dunes be responsible for its loftier rating ?

One is to high and the other is to low.

Regionalism, in Bandon, OR?   I've always thought of an East Coast bias in all of the rankings.

Friars Head is only questionable in my mind by how many panelists played the course and how much jury rigging did Brad provide?

[DMoriarty]

Being that GW had an outing at Bandon, I doubt regionalism was involved.  

Believe it or not, I was actually kind of surprised that Bandon didnt pass Pacific in the ratings.   At the outing, many of the GW raters with whom I spoke said they preferred Bandon over Pacific (I attended the rater's outing as a guest of a rater.)  But I guess it was not quite enough to swap the order.  Or they reconsidered.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel Stewart,

It's my understanding that a minimum of 15 ballots is required for a golf course to be considered.

I'd be amazed if double that number didn't visit Friar's Head,
I also doubt that Brad Klein had any influence over the results or the alteration of the process.

[Brian_Gracely]

Could the clouds of litigation have had an influence ?

Can you elaborate on what potential litigation you are implying?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian,

Extended litigation and its potential impact cast the clouds of doubt over Friar's Head's future.

Fortunately, the issues were resolved vis a vis a settlement.

[THuckaby2]

Being that GW had an outing at Bandon, I doubt regionalism was involved.  

Believe it or not, I was actually kind of surprised that Bandon didnt pass Pacific in the ratings.   At the outing, many of the GW raters with whom I spoke said they preferred Bandon over Pacific (I attended the rater's outing as a guest of a rater.)  But I guess it was not quite enough to swap the order.  Or they reconsidered.

Interesting... people must be quite different in person than in correspondence and posting.  My experience after that outing was the complete opposite... every single GW rater I spoke to, had emails with, or who posted here, preferred Pacific Dunes to Bandon, most with a margin of at least 4 to 1 (that is, they'd play PD 4 times for every 1 time at BD).  And David, you know most of them are the same ones you talked to whilst there...  So I was surprised Bandon finished as high as it did...

Same goes for Friar's Head, in reverse.  Every single person I heard from here or elsewhere called it the best new course they had ever seen, or something approaching that.  So seeing it come in at "only" number 11 was a bit surprising to me also...

The learning here?  What people say is often far different from the ballots they fill out.

TH

[SPDB]

Pat -
I'm not sure what you mean by litigation casting the clouds of doubt. Do you mean on raters ability to get to the course, or that litigation somehow impacted its position?

What is the relative weighting of "litigation" vis-a-vis other criteria, e.g. shot values, feature shaping, and ease and intimacy of routing.

[DMoriarty]

Interesting... people must be quite different in person than in correspondence and posting.  My experience after that outing was the complete opposite... every single GW rater I spoke to, had emails with, or who posted here, preferred Pacific Dunes to Bandon, most with a margin of at least 4 to 1 (that is, they'd play PD 4 times for every 1 time at BD).  And David, you know most of them are the same ones you talked to whilst there...  So I was surprised Bandon finished as high as it did...

Same goes for Friar's Head, in reverse.  Every single person I heard from here or elsewhere called it the best new course they had ever seen, or something approaching that.  So seeing it come in at "only" number 11 was a bit surprising to me also...

The learning here?  What people say is often far different from the ballots they fill out.

Actually Tom, many of the people I spoke with at Bandon were not the ones who post here.  One of the things I learned hanging around the GW meeting is that many if not most of the raters have absolutely no interest in a site like this one.  If anything, I think we get a very misleading impression of the views of the raters based on the views of those who post here.  

So while raters may speak a different game than they ballot, I dont think my post necessarily supports this conclusion.  

[Dan Kelly]

One of the things I learned hanging around the GW meeting is that many if not most of the raters have absolutely no interest in a site like this one.

How can that possibly be?

Do you agree, GW raters?

[THuckaby2]

Fair enough, David.  But the ones that do post here, that you and I both know for the most part, pretty much universally chose Pacific over Bandon, by a very large margin.... and that's a darn big number of GW raters, too.  I had no idea there was such a split in the thinking... very interesting... and reassuring.

Of course this now makes me wonder also how either course got such a high ranking, but then again, I also do just figure that what one says often may not translate to the exact figures one puts on a ballot.

Yet another thing to discuss, or perhaps not, at Rustic in a few weeks....  

[DMoriarty]

Tom, it seems like there are so many GW raters that it is almost impossible to toe shank a wedge without hitting one.  
Arent there like 40,000 golfweek raters, or at least hundreds?  Surely many more than post here.  

As for those who do post here, they can speak for themselves so I wont bother trying to recall their specific thoughts regarding the two courses.  Suffice it to say that their opinions were neither as unanimous nor as decisive as you portray them.  

How did they both get a high rating?  I did not say that some hated PD, just that some liked BD better.  You might ask yourself how BD faired so well if all the GW raters preferred PD as unanimously and by as wide a margin as you seem to think.

[ForkaB]

I've always thought BD and PD to be roughly equal in playing interest (but in very diffente ways) and it refreshing and instructive to see how two such different courses of quality could be built adjacent to each other on similar pieces of land.

FH's #11 shocked me only because I thought the hype from this site and the C&C wow factor would have carried it much higher.  I've only walked it, and before it was completely grown in, so I can't really comment on its finished quality.  Those who have played both, why is it (or isn't it) "better" than Bandon Dunes?

PS--what I am shocked is to see that Applebrook doesn't even make the new list.  I did play it, about the same time that I played BD and PD, and I think it is just as good a golf course as either of those two places.

[hp@hc]

I would have to say that Friars Head earned it's ranking, and I thought it would come in a little higher - possibly 5 or 6.

The course is a masterpiece, provides the golfer with every kind of visual and mental challenge, can be found in impeccible condition, passes the walk in the park test with flying colors, and is really distinctive overall.  

When I played it, I walked off 18 and sat on the site of the new clubhouse thinking that it will be top 10 in the US, top 30 in the world.  Then again, that's just my opinion  Anyone care to disagree, and of so, what are the weak points about FH?  I know I couldn't find any

[Joel_Stewart]

1.   Sand Hills
2.   Pacific Dunes
3.   Bandon Dunes
4.   Whistling Straits (Straits)
5.   Pete Dye GC
6.   Shadow Creek
7.   The Golf Club
8.   Muirfield Village
9.   Kinloch GC
10.   Honors Course
11.   Friar’s Head*

After thinking about this list, Friars Head is the only course that should move up on the next list.  All of these courses rank in the Golf Digest top 100 and a most of them rate in Golf Magazine world top 100.

IMHO I place Friars Head even with Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes.

[THuckaby2]

How did they both get a high rating?  I did not say that some hated PD, just that some liked BD better.  You might ask yourself how BD faired so well if all the GW raters preferred PD as unanimously and by as wide a margin as you seem to think.

That's exactly what I am asking myself, David.  Just as you asked yourself a similar question in the other direction, based on your experience (which I don't doubt, btw); ie how did BD NOT leapfrog PD?

So what are your conclusions?

Note also that my memory is not wrong about the 10 or so I talked to decisively preferring PD to BD.   They did.  But of course you know better than I do what they said to me - my apologies.  

TH

[Jim Franklin]

Joel -

I am with you. I place FH right up there with SH and PD. In fact, in my personal favorites, it ranks #2 behind CPC.

[Jimmy Muratt]

A few people have mentioned that Bandon Dunes, Pete Dye GC, and Muirfield Village are overrated.  What are everyone's thoughts on Kinloch's position?

I love Kinloch, I'm just not sure if it's quite THAT good.  It's in some pretty elite territory where it is.  It defintely is unique and very strategic, the amount of options that Lester George presented defintely keeps your full attention.  The condition of the course is also superb.  

For those that have played it, do you think Kinloch belongs in the top 10?

[Bob_Huntley]

I rarely enter discussions on the relative merits of where different courses should stand in order of merit, however, I think what I have to say could be pertinent.

As in life, when choosing a partner, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I am sure it is the same when deciding on the merits of a golf course. To some, Spanish Bay is a bit of a pig, but to one fellow GCA'er it is probably is the nearest thing to heaven as he will get!

With one exception, Cypress Point has received raves from the Tree-house, however there is a certain pseudo Scot out there who would reverse its direction. There is no truth to the rumour, that as a youngster he defaced a photograph of Bobby Jones.

The criteria for awarding points to the rating exercise is lacking one thing, the visceral excitement and sheer joy of playing a course that stirs the soul. For me, The Old Course does it, Carnoustie doesn't.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

EXACTLY

[THuckaby2]

EXACTAMUNDO.

 

[GeoffreyC]

Bob - you say

"The criteria for awarding points to the rating exercise is lacking one thing, the visceral excitement and sheer joy of playing a course that stirs the soul. For me, The Old Course does it, Carnoustie doesn't."

One could get into the various criteria for rating and how GW differes from GD etc., however, that would diminish the pure essence of what you said. One aspect of this site (among many) that I enjoy about this site is the consensus that agrees with you about the sheer joy of playing some special course that does in fact stir the soul.

To keep in line with the content of this thread- Friars Head does in fact stir the soul and is a sheer joy to play. Bob- I hope you get to play it sometime soon.

[DMoriarty]

The criteria for awarding points to the rating exercise is lacking one thing, the visceral excitement and sheer joy of playing a course that stirs the soul.

Well said.  They all neglect the only category that matters.  

__________________________________

Relax Tom, I didnt claim to know what anyone told you.  I merely said that not all the posters/GW raters felt the same as the ones to whom you talked.  In other words, you must have communicated with different posters/raters.  

Obviously 10 raters is not nearly large enough sample to draw any conclusions about how they all feel.   Nor is the sample of raters I spoke with at Bandon.  That is why they add up the numbers instead of just inquiring here what the ratings should be.  And why I dont think we need a Grand Jury investigation of why BD and PD came out as they did.  I doubt they are complaining!

[THuckaby2]

Sounds good to me, Dave.  And it does remain interesting to me the different perspective of the various GW raters.  

Now to whom do I write the check for TKPIII?

TH

ps - GD ratings do not neglect this most important aspect...  

[Jim Franklin]

Bob -

Well put. FH certainly stirs the soul even though some of the greats to ever play the game will never play there (Hogan, Jones, Hagen ...)

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()