[Chris_Clouser]

Last week on TV I watched the preview special they had on for the Players Championship this week.  In going through the course and talking with the players there was a familiar refrain.

The greens on this course are the most difficult we see all year.  And almost all of them followed that with a comment on the severe contouring that the greens contain.  

I am wondering if this whole argument about the length of the golf course can combatted with a better understanding of what it takes to challenge the player at the green site instead of adding the needless amount of yardage that so many clubs seem to be all to willing to accept.  For instance, the pros talk about the challenge that Sawgrass presents due to it relentless attack on their games.  If you want to score there they intimated that you have to hit the ball to the correct portion of the green and to do that you have to hit from the correct part of the fairway and doing that means that you absolutely have to challenge the hazards on every hole from the tee.  Otherwise you better be willing to accept par and a few bogeys.  This almost sounds to me like a description of heroic golf design, instead of strategic design may be the answer to challenging the pros.  Length isn't the only ingrediant to that.  Solid green design, with hazards that challenge the tee shot, varied hole designs to allow them real birdie chances and a modicum of length seem to be the ingrediants in that order.  Not the other way around as we seem to see on so many layouts that these guys play.

So my question then is how would this style of heroic design for the top level of player be compatible to a strategic style of design that is attractive and enjoyable to a regular joe like myself?

[Steve_L.]

Chris...

I'm not certain if I know how to answer your post...  But I'll share my observations of this years TPC...

I attend every year - and was at Tuesday's and Wednesday's practice round...  The ball (not a news flash) IS FLYING FARTHER...  I stood at the tee on 18 and watched 4 groups play through - MOST hit 3-wood and many were hitting 7-8 irons into the green (447 yards).  The greens ARE fast, and treacherous and greenside hazards severe...  But these hazards are less an issue when playing with 9-irons and wedges - they just hit it so close...  

To me, the best defense this course has is the wind...  When it is blowing, it is a terrific test of controlling the ball in the tough conditions...  

Today's conditions would be brutal for the average guy... The rough is LONG, and WET...  The Stadium Course for the tournament doesn't resemble the course we see every day for resort play...  To me - the difference isn't about its playability for the average Joe - its about the setup...

It's a great course, but less for its strategic value than for its demand on well-executed shots...  

[Matt Kardash]

I think the reason the course isn't getting killed is becuase of its greens(mind you the rough is a given)..some of those greens are brutal..watch the telecast, you hardly ever see anyone make anything outside of 15 or 20 feet. Just look at #13, only 173 yards, but the green is designed so that if you don't hit the proper portion you will probably 3 putt(Ian Baker Finch came very close to calling the 13th green unfair, i like the green however)

It's amazing, but the TPC is actually a short course now(less than 7100 yards, i believe)

[ForkaB]

Steve L.

TPC at Sawgrass is as "strategic" as any course you or I could ever think of.  Strategy involves both planning and execution.  "Sawgrass" requires both, in spades.

[Jeff Goldman]

Did any of you see it when it first opened, before all the renovations?  I haven't and didn't, but I recall Tom Doak writing that it was designed to be the "anti-augusta" with grubby areas, etc., and now it has been augusta-ized, with green everywhere (along with having the course softened).  So I ask:  Is TPC the modern course most in need of restoration back to its orignal design?

Jeff Goldman

[Jeff_Brauer]

Regarding the severe contouring, lets not forget that Pete Dye came back and softened them all, with some several times.

My understanding, straight from the pros mouths, of what they don't like is the severe ridges in the middle of the greens, which kick shots in all directions.  As one pro told me, the middle of the green is traditionally the safe shot.

As another said, the ridge would be okay one hole, but "Pete liked it so well, he repeated it 17 more times."

[ForkaB]

Jeff

I first played it in early 1982.  The day before that I played Sawgrass CC (the previous TPC venue), which was supposed to be brutal (it can be, BTW!) and shot 78, playing about as well as I could play in those days.  I played about as well at TPC the next day and shot 87.  When Pate shot -8 over 4 rounds a few months later I knew that I was crap and those guys were GOOD!

The main difference between Sawgrass 1982 and today (I lived there from 1988-90) was that the slopes on some of the greens were softened considerably (#4 comes to mind).  My guess, however, is that the pros could deal with those problems much better today than 20 years ago.  So, yes, restoration is in order!

Can't wait to see those babies start to cry again.........

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,

As I understand it, one of the "technical problems" of the course was trying to do desert waste areas in Florida.  the weeds simply grew to well there, and everyone got tired of maintaining them that way.  Hence, the waste areas are now turfed.  

I doubt they will go back.  This is a good idea of a good idea that just didn't work out.  I know Pete wouldn't fight it, as he is too practical and learns from his mistakes, as do we all.  This is also a good example of why Golden Age architects would, IMHO, probably feel the same way.  Not every idea architects have work out for the best.  Those that don't, well they have to be changed.

[Matt Kardash]

I always thought that this course would look really cool if those mounds were covered in tall grass

I find it amazing that this course has no long par 4's anymore...the longest hole is 466, and even in wet conditions tiger still only had 9 iron... i'm not a fan of making holes longer but the 18th at TPC is in dire need of it. It has played the same yardage since 1980 i think. Back then they hit driver - 5 iron, now they hit 3 wood - 8 iron

The pro's like the course now, so you know there must be something wrong with it now, i'm sure that's what Pete would say  

[les_claytor]

I would hardly call the stadium course "augusta-ized."  Try hitting out of the bahia a few times, and I'm sure you would agree.

Refined would be a better term.  You gotta remember, the Stadium is a fairly high volume resort course, so simply from management practices, the ultra shaggy original state was doomed from the start.  Throw in the desires of the Pro's, and the fact that it is their headquaters, and the current state of the course is a legacy to Mr. Dye and Mr. Beamon.

Believe me, there is plenty of spirit left in the Stadium course.

[ian]

The leader board reminds me of Riviera, more shot makers are closer to the lead than bombers. You generally find the players like those courses more. The field is generally better for these events to0.

I get the impression that they like it much more now since the equipment has made it more manageble.

[Paul Richards]

Was Davis Love playing the same course as everyone else today?  
 
He fired a 64 for a Tiger-esque 6-shot victory!  


Do the "teeth" of the Sawgrass monster need sharpening?

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