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John_Conley

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USGA & golf magazine course ratings
« on: February 29, 2004, 02:14:53 PM »
One proposal to "clean up" the USGA has it seeking to AVOID those with the financial means to volunteer - at a tremendous investment of their time - for posts.

One proposal to "clean up" the Golfweek "America's Best" panel is to SEEK OUT those who will do all of the work at their own expense knowing that it is not possible to receive a comped round.

Does anyone else see the irony?

Here is a story, quite typical, of "a day in the life" as a rater:

Nick, Randy, and myself flew (at our own expense of course) to meet my friend Steve, a Sand Hills member, in Denver.  We drove in a rented behemoth (at our own expense of course) to the Dismal River cottages.  All treatment at Sand Hills was under the typical member-guest arrangement.  Steve called us all a month later with our share of the bill.  As you can guess, all panelists gave Sand Hills a nice rating.  (Personally I gave it a 10 on our 10-pt. scale, but that shouldn't matter and I shouldn't even be talking about it.)

The final day of our trip saw Nick, Randy, and myself drive S of Denver to play Sanctuary with architect Jim Engh.  Did we pay?  No.  I don't know that the club even has a mechanism to accept money.  Handing any to our host or Mr. Remax (who was there that day) would have seemed shady.  The three of us discussed our impressions on the drive to the airport following the round.  Reviews ranged from excellent to so-so, it matters not who said which.

What was Jim Engh's response to our visit?  (Paraphrased since I didn't have a tape recorder.)  "I think it is great that GOLFWEEK has a bunch of avid guys like you that work so hard to go see my work.  GOLF MAGAZINE's panel doesn't have the same fervor.  I'd LOVE to have them see all of my courses and hope it happens some day."

For all the "guy's careers are affected by the rankings" folks out there, the corrollary is that the same lists help bolster other (and it should be noted, deserving) careers as well.  It is hardly exclusionary.

A guy in my office was named one of the Top Ten stockbrokers in America by Registered Rep a couple years ago.  Did that cause me to question the criteria and process?  After all, "Steve will have an easier time prospecting," than I will.  No.  Heck no.  Congratulate him and work to get to the same level.

Doug Sobieski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA & golf magazine course ratings
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2004, 09:06:02 AM »
John:

I didn't want this to get lost on page two because it was started over the weekend, since I'd bet there will be some responses to this.

Sobe

Jim_Michaels

Re:USGA & golf magazine course ratings
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2004, 09:09:01 AM »
John, your analogy makes about as much sense as your magazine's ratings.  

All three panels have issues.  GM's is too small to cover the whole world. GD's questions are biased toward difficult courses. GW's panelists seem to me to have the poorest eye, so their leader attempts to guide them to better answers. BUt hey, it sure is fun to talk about isn't it?

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:USGA & golf magazine course ratings
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2004, 10:03:28 AM »
John,

I think many whose live's may be affected by the rankings have not been the biggest complainers about the rankings.  But, i do not know everyone's background on here, however I am ammazed how many raters are here.  In fact, it seems the majority of respondents on here are raters.  Like you, I think many of us are pleased to see architect's get recognition from the rankings, particularly those whom have received little recognition in the past.  Maybe you have received different opinions from architects than that.  However, your story about the day in the life of a rater was for what purpose?  Are you saying that it is not easy being a rater?  What are the hardships?  Why put your self through it?  Why is the architect meeting the raters to play his course?  Was he notified ahead of time?  Did he arrange for the raters to come to his course?  Did he make arrangements for you to get comped, or pay for any part of your trip?  Should the process allow for this type of arrangement?  Does it help for an architect to market directly to raters?  Given that many on here have acknowledged they are raters would it be proper for the architects that frequent the site to start up a correspondance with them, invite them to their courses, invite them to openings, maybe even play a round with them?  Since there appears to be a hardship, amybe financial, for the raters would it be proper for the architect to help in reimbursing them for some of their expenses, maybe provide them with gifts?  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:USGA & golf magazine course ratings
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2004, 10:52:24 AM »

All three panels have issues.  
GM's is too small to cover the whole world.

How many panelists does GM have ?

GD's questions are biased toward difficult courses.

Which questions, and how are they biased toward difficult courses ?

GW's panelists seem to me to have the poorest eye,

How do you make that assessment ?

so their leader attempts to guide them to better answers.

Could you explain, exactly how Brad Klein attempts to guide them to better answers ?

Does he guide them before or after they send in their ballot ?
Or, does he guide them after they've played the golf courrse but before they send in their ballot ?
Or does he quide them prior to there playing the golf course ?
And, how does he know where and when each rater will play a golf course ?

Have you ever seen the GW ballot ?


BUt hey, it sure is fun to talk about isn't it?


John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA & golf magazine course ratings
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2004, 11:18:31 AM »
Kelly:

Your post seems well intentioned, so I will respond as best I can.

I fail to see any "hardship" and surely don't think "it's tough to be" a rater.  We did something that ANYONE can do if they know a member of Sand Hills.  Randy and Nick "knew a guy who knew a guy" and made it happen when the opportunity arose.  I'm merely trying to give one example about how passionate my fellow lightning rods are.

No offense, but you are an architect of less renown than Jim Engh.  The experience of playing with the architect is certainly unusual, but hardly unethical.  If I were to visit a course you designed and you did not WISH to take time out of your busy schedule to join me - well, that's your prerogative.  Conversely, is there anything wrong with it if you did WISH to join me for 18 holes?  I don't see the harm.  You'd be acting, either way, on your own.

Yes, it is true that access to Sanctuary was gained through the architect.  Any restricted club will fall into one of two categories.  1) Policy PERMITS visits from raters.  2) Policy DOES NOT PERMIT visits from raters.  Either way, that's THEIR choice.  Does it matter for the list?  Surely you'd have trouble gaining any accolade if you didn't let anyone see your course - think Mel Simon's private enclave - BUT, a funny thing happened!!! THE BEAR CLUB in Palm Beach County made the Top 100 Modern DESPITE not letting panelists visit.  (Obviously enough people must have seen it via other avenues.)

I don't tell other people how to spend their money, but I've encountered many people here that are content to dictate to other golf properties whether or not they should let people play their course.

Finally, Kelly, where is the closest place to see some of your work?  I live in Orlando and am always looking to see the designs of architects I haven't seen before.  May I suggest Eagle Dunes for you by Mike Dasher if you are like me and always trying to play interesting new courses when possible?  It is in Sorrento just N of Orlando.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA & golf magazine course ratings
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2004, 11:48:01 AM »
 But, i do not know everyone's background on here, however I am ammazed how many raters are here.  In fact, it seems the majority of respondents on here are raters.  

How does this amaze anyone?  A fellow panelist describe our group as "A Star Trek" convention.

People who frequent this site are avid.

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:USGA & golf magazine course ratings
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2004, 04:27:42 PM »
John,

i do try hard not to get offended otherwise life would be more difficult.  The only offense I take from your one comment is that you think so little of my grasp on reality you felt it necessary to tell me publically I am an architect of less renown than Jim Engh.  However, having said that I do ask that when I am an architect of greater renown than Jim Engh please let me know so that I price myself accordingly, and make time to read about myself.  I would hate to miss that!!  

There might be a problem John if I sought you out because you are a rater to play my course.  That's my own problem, but yes there might be an ethical problem.  Having said that i know of some instances when Matt Ward contacted me about one of my courses and he played some holes, not all, but I doubt I asked them to comp him, and I put him in contact with a new course about to open so he could sell them ad space in his magazine since the course is in his market, but he never got back with me to arrange a visit.  But, I must admit this site makes me much more uncomfortable because of the preceived ethical issues that can come up.  I am not trying to be high and mighty which somebody here accused me of one time, but in my opinion your reputation is everything, the way you conduct your affairs and the people you associate with are important, and no matter how carefully you watch that you will always put yourself in a position that may appear compromising.  I think purposely contacting known raters to get them on your course to benefit your career is unethical.  However, John, and this is a hard distinction to make, I think if a client asked me to help them get more recognition then that might have to be one of the options considered.  In any case if it works and the course gets a lot of coverage then it goes so will the architect.  And really I think the rankings should be much  more meaningful to the club, because it may help them sell more green fees or memberships.  A good ranking could mean a lot to the success for their business and that is where an architect best serves their client after the work is done.  People don't hire me for my name, as you so astutely pointed out, I have no name, no standing in the raters world, so my client's have to rely much more on their judgement of the market beforehand, and on the final product to help them make the course a success.  One component of that marketing campaign that could help them would be to get a best of or an actual ranking.  I wish I could help them do that after the course opens, I do everything I can in the design/constrcution to deliver something that might catch some media attention, but in the long run it will come from the quality of the course.  A Fazio is a guarenteeed media success, no doubt, but will it sustain over 10 years, and is it worth the heavy up front investment.  Obviously a lot of clients think so.  It is a little like the movie industry.  Heavy upfront marketing and fees to generate the buzz before the premier, and it works for the first couple of years, but can the quality of the course sustain those accolades over a ten year period.  How many of those up front heavy promoted courses fade off the radar screen after 5 years, and is the client or  the next owner left holding the bag.  It is all a very interesting game.  It has serious consequences for all of us but we are big boys and do the best we can, nothing less.

But, having said that if anyone I know or are aquainted with called to see if they could play one of my courses I would seek to oblige their request.  And they might be a rater.  But I think it would be in poor taste, let's drop the unethical part because I think most of us try to do good and do not deserve that harsh a judgement, but it might be in bad taste for me to seek out raters, say use this site to target raters and then pursue a relationship with them in hopes of getting them on my courses to give me a good rating.  I think that is an abuse of this site.  And i would hope raters wouldn't seek out architects for that purpose.  i know Mark Fine played one of my courses, and I had no idea until afterword, and I know he is  a rater, maybe that is why he went, but i think that it was proper that he did not seek me out or ask me to accompany him.  He went on his own, did not seek me out.  You guys should be smart enough to understand a golf course without the architect being there.  

And you know John the rating game may not be in my future any way because one well placed source has emailed me since I have been engaged in some of these rating threads and said I have probably made the black ball list with raters.  Now why would that be?  The rating business is totally unbiased, highly ethical, totally objective, so it is not possible that any architect could fear a black ball list, no?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 04:36:27 PM by Kelly Blake Moran »

Geoff_Shackelford

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Re:USGA & golf magazine course ratings
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2004, 05:11:50 PM »
John,

Where can I read the proposals you are citing?

Do you think the expense of being a rater would be far less substantial if the rater events were eliminated and the magazine only came out with the list every 2-3 years, thus making it less necessary to see so many courses in a short period of time at great expense?

Geoff

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA & golf magazine course ratings
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2004, 05:58:58 PM »
Kelly:

I've got to run so I can't respond at length.

I contacted a fellow panel member about which course to see near Denver if we had time.  He suggested I call Mr. Engh.  Mr. Engh did not solicit anyone.  (I don't want anyone to misunderstand that.)

I wasn't making any attack when I said Engh had more renown nor holding myself out as an authority on architects' reputations.  I've seen his name on GD's "Best New" a bunch.  He may even have been their Architect of the Year.  (Not the publication I rate for.)  I was merely offereing that someone who has not received that much attention might welcome it.

Geoff:

The proposals to "clean up" the USGA were written in a recent Golfweek issue.  I think the reporter was trying to cover the types of ideas that others had suggested.  He might have been editorializing.  I don't know for sure as I didn't read too much about the USGA's inner politicking.

One proposal to "clean up" the Golfweek "America's Best" came from you.

It seems clear to me that you have no use for the list as it is currently printed.  Fine if you don't like it.  I suspect you take the end result more seriously than some of the panelists do.  I respect the process, work to do my part, and acknowledge the finished product as the collective work of our group.  Doesn't mean I agree with every course's spot and I wouldn't expect anyone else to either.

Do you disagree with the placement of any courses - inclusion or omissions as well?

Since you are at odds with it, isn't it easier to just throw up  your arms and say, "consider the source!"?  KELVIN FREAKING TORBERT was someone's HS Player of the Year.  NATIONAL Player of the Year.  His inability to stand out in college causes me to say, "what were they thinking?  Next."

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA & golf magazine course ratings
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2004, 06:51:30 PM »
John,
If you could point me to where I made that proposal on green fees, it would be most informative. I think you got a little carried away in reading into my comments, because I have never made such a proposal. And regarding the USGA Executive Committee, I'd love to read that too, because every proposal I am aware of emphasizes the opposite: using USGA resources to fund travel for committee members in order to attract a more diverse group, including lower income, public players who bring a fresh perspective.

What I oppose, and what Golfweek used to discourage, was the practice of actively seeking freebies. I understand it's an expensive proposition to be a rater and free green fees are the norm and that's fine. But I also understand that Golfweek asks you to go to a course expecting to pay, and if you don't, great, if you do, do not hold it against the course. They also discourage taking anything that might give the wrong impression, right?

I assume you are "at odds" with my questions about eliminating the outings and publishing less often as reasonable suggestions to solve the issues that make panelist life expensive?
Geoff

Top100Guru

Re:USGA & golf magazine course ratings
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2004, 07:28:00 PM »
Comparing the ratings by Golfweek folks to that of the ratings by "Wine Spectator" folks is very similar.........what we need, is "independent verification" by a new 'Ratings Group" that doesn't take bribes, accept gifts, comp'd rounds, preferrential treatment, etc. ........kinda of like "Mr. Robert Parker", of wine ratings fame....that is what he does, and he is probably the single-most respected opinion in the wine rating business....I'll volunteer to join in a group that wants to step forward and form a real "Ratings Panel-Organization"

I am an authority on wine as well......

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA & golf magazine course ratings
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2004, 09:01:50 AM »

I am an authority on wine as well......


This is one of the funniest posts I've ever seen on GCA.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2004, 09:06:30 AM by SPDB »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA & golf magazine course ratings
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2004, 09:50:33 AM »
John,
If you could point me to where I made that proposal on green fees, it would be most informative. I think you got a little carried away in reading into my comments, because I have never made such a proposal. And regarding the USGA Executive Committee, I'd love to read that too, because every proposal I am aware of emphasizes the opposite: using USGA resources to fund travel for committee members in order to attract a more diverse group, including lower income, public players who bring a fresh perspective.

What I oppose, and what Golfweek used to discourage, was the practice of actively seeking freebies. I understand it's an expensive proposition to be a rater and free green fees are the norm and that's fine. But I also understand that Golfweek asks you to go to a course expecting to pay, and if you don't, great, if you do, do not hold it against the course. They also discourage taking anything that might give the wrong impression, right?

I assume you are "at odds" with my questions about eliminating the outings and publishing less often as reasonable suggestions to solve the issues that make panelist life expensive?
Geoff

Geoff:

I don't understand why a rater meeting is a bad thing.  I've stopped attending since my son was born.  They are hardly cheap and do not appear to be priced below retail for such a trip.  Without gatherings it would be hard to exchange ideas.  Face-to-face still has some advantages versus e-mail.

I don't know any active panel member that has ever complained about expenses.  I mention that it is hardly the life of a rock star and I think some people mistook that to mean it was a burden.  KBM even used the word hardship.

You say your understanding of the USGA direction is different than mine, but then mention the same thing I did - an effort to use their resources to make it so the group has less of a blue-blood feel.

I think you are citing practices that I'm not aware of as it relates to the Golfweek panel.  Is there anything BEYOND a round of golf and the occasional lunch or drink that is customary in any casual setting?  Let me know if I'm missing out!

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