[Matt_Ward]

Given the sheer array of total courses you find in the great State of Michigan I have to wonder what layout would get the 3rd best position when assessing the totality of golf that exists in the Wolverine State?

I would think that Crystal Downs and Oakland Hills / South would take the first two positions -- although I am not so absolutely positive that the former Hogan monster -- witness the onslaught of the collegiate players during the US Amateur -- would still be thaaaaaaaaaat high -- we shall indeed see with this year's Ryder Cup.

Given all the quality layouts I have to wonder what layout would merit being placed right behind that dynamic duo? And, is that gap between #2 and #3 really that far apart as it would be in Pennsy?

I have not played the vast range of MI courses that some have, however, I am especially torn between Arcadia Bluffs and The Kingsley Club. Both have much to offer although the back nine is slightly less stellar on TKC. On the flip side the weaker architectural holes at AB are fronted in the beginning of the round.

Given how competitive other states are with a 3rd position -- witness the Keystone State on a related post -- I have to ask those in the know is Michigan equally as strong or does the level of course quality begin to tumble after a few unique courses?

[Will E]

Matt,
I'm not so sure I'd have Oakland Hills/South at #2 either. There are a bunch of courses that I could easily have tied for the second spot. So here's how I have it stacked today, knowing that it could be different in an hour or so.
1. Crystal Downs
2. Dunes Club (alt tees on the second loop)
3. Indianwood Old
4. Oakland Hills South
T5. Black Forest
     Franklin Hills
     Lost Dunes
     Forest Dunes
     TKC
     University of Michigan
     CC of Detroit
T12
Tullymoore, Barton Hills, Radrick, Treetops, POW, Gailes, Pilgirms Run.

I've yet to see Symer's new course, if it is anything like Old Memorial then it will make the top 10 for sure. Arcadia isn't on the list because I haven't seen it, nor have I seen the much loved Belvedere, or Detroit Golf. Other than those courses I don't think I've missed much.

[Steven_Biehl]

I would concede Crystal Downs the #1 spot.  I am a little cloudy on whether Oakland Hills South gets #2.  (I am making this judgement on the ignorance of having never been to Oakland Hills).  I would put the Kingsley Club at #2.  Arcadia Bluffs follows at #3.  From there the list could be filled in with any number of courses.

1. Crystal Downs
2. Kingsley Club
3. Arcadia Bluffs
Oakland Hills (South)
Lost Dunes
Forest Dunes
Indianwood
CC of Detroit
High Pointe
Dunes Club
Pilgrim's Run
Diamond Springs

The distance between 2 and 3 is minimal.  But, from the courses I have listed, as well as the courses I have not listed, I don't think the quality of courses in Michigan drops very rapidly as you proceed down the list.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Oakland Hills South is historic; a fine Ross routing over an interesting property, featuring some really neat, challenging greens. But the course has suffered through some ill advised changes - the worst being post RTJ. As a result, I don't think Oakland Hills South would feature in my Michigan top 5.

I'm not a fan of rankings, but I'll say Crystal Downs is number one in Michigan. After that, Kingsley Club, High Pointe, Franklin Hills and Lost Dunes all impress me more than the Oakland Hills South of today. I haven't seen the Dunes Club, but based on photos and heresay, I think I'd rather play there daily than Oakland Hills South.

And, as for my personal taste, I might put Pilgrim's Run and Diamond Springs in the same category. They'd be much more enjoyable to play daily than the 2004 version of Oakland Hills South.

That's not saying Oakland Hills is a bad course. On the contrary, it's world-class. Just not in my Michigan top 5!

[Steve Lang]

 

Matt,

I think the offerings are strong between 3 and likely 20th or so.  Are you talking pro's needs or normal humans?

Personally I don't think the pros would like playing medal golf at TKC, though playihg it last year was a highlight, if I can shoot par on the back, the pros would tear it up.. I've never gotten out on Arcadia Bluffs,  perhaps this year...
 
Understanding that S. Mich is basically glaciated flat with rolling topography per wide river valleys and N. Mich has wonderful sand hills and dales (from glacier morraines) and the east and west coasts have more elevation differentiation and you're never more than 7 miles from water in the entire state, there's a lot of good golf locales there and most golfers would say they have no problem finding good affordable golf.   So what's your preference?  

The resorts aren't bad at all, if not super architecture, some definitely great locales and certainly challenging for most all..

I like Tree Tops first, Shanty Creek Resort-Cedar River & Schuss Mtn. , Boyne Mountain Resort then Grand Traverse Resort, haven't tried but heard good $ needed at Crystal Mountain Resort , and about Manistee National Golf & Resort .

I find it interesting that Black Forest (our usual first course during vacation) and Highpointe (a regular venue followed by steaknight at Boones Long Lake Inn) always get high marks, but didn't concurrently by Steven B and Shooter..

There are hidden gems lurking that are able to satisfy most all tastes.  We like to take in Dunmaglas, Grandview, The Chief, even The Dream while going other places.

If you're planning a visit to N. Mich there are many more than those listed above that deserve a look and should be considered as above average adventures.

p.s. If you're there in late July/early August please come by Blue Lake in NE Kalkaska Co. in the heart of it all, and we'll check some of them out and cool out on the water..

[Ken Fry]

The courses listed thus far are all outstanding tracks.  I'm curious what opinions Point 'O Woods evokes?

[Joe Hancock]

Point O' Woods is a fun course, a demanding course. It's thorn in its side is an over-abundance of trees, but I heard they were removing some.

Hit it long, hit it straight and you'll like POW.

My list, according ONLY to what I've played in Michigan:

Crystal Downs
Kingsley Club

Pilgrims Run/ Lost Dunes/ CC of Jackson/ Walnut Hills/ Blythefield/ Kent

My sleeper:

http://www.muskegoncc.com/page/32-912.htm

Enjoy,

Joe

[Chris_Clouser]

I hope Tom Doak jumps on this thread.  I've played a little bit of golf in Michigan (in-laws live there) and I would only have 3 words to those that don't have Oakland Hills in there top two,

YOU ARE CRAZEEE!!!  

Now, I wouldn't want to play there every day, but the course is truly a test for the normal guy.  It may not be for people that routinely hit 320 yard drives, but how many of those are on this board.  The greens are superb, most of the bunkering around the greens is still very strategic.  The only fault I would find on the whole course is the routine bunkering that RTJ used to pinch in the fairways.  And of course, a good chainsaw would be nice every so often around the course, but it is a solid #2 in the state behind Crystal Downs.

Unfortunately, I haven't played Arcadia or Kingsley.  So Indianwood would be my #3.  If they both beat that then that would be a great top 5.  Others I like are Dunmaglas, Tullymore, U of M and maybe POW.  The Dunes Club sounds interesting and I would love to see it as well.  I've already got the wife to agree to me playing golf anywhere I want the next time we go up this summer, so I have a feeling I'll be seeing a lot of these places this time around.  I'm curious where the Greywalls course will fall in this that DeVries is working on.

Joe,

Good call on Muskegon.  A nice course.  Our neighbor's brother works on the grounds crew there.  Got to play it last time I was up.  Solid layout but I think it is probably a top 50 course in the state, but definately not a top 10 from what I've played.  

[David Wigler]

Matt,

Are you refering to real courses that can be played or courses that might have existed in the mind or in the past?  I ask because I see High Pointe on peoples lists.  Come on Jeff Mingay - High Pointe over Oakland Hills  .  Come on Steven B.  Your list looked like one of those SAT questions where you are supposed to pick the one that doesn't belong.

I happen to like Kingsley better than Oakland Hills and probably but to drop Oakland Hills further than 3rd is pretty hard in my book (Haven't played Dunes Club).

[Jfaspen]

I walked Oakland Hills for the 96 Open and was impressed.  I played Arcadia Bluffs last year and I was blown away.  Have not gotten on Crystal Downs yet, it is a life-time goal.

Have had the opportunity to play both courses at Indian-wood, old course is very impressive.

A couple of fun, little known courses lie on the property of Oakland University in Rochester Hills.  Katke Cousins and the newer (Rick Smith Designed) R&S Sharf Golf Course.  Both are always in excellent condition and are must play courses if you get the chance.

Jeff

[Matt_Ward]

Gentlemen:

For those who are lawyers in the group and who need absolute c-l-e-a-r directions on what courses to select -- I'm looking for feedback relating to layouts that have architectural depth. Clearly, the course(s) should have the capacity to test the fullest range of players -- high handicappers and those of true talent.

Clearly, it seems that Oakland Hills / South is still a major contender -- although I find it hard to believe some would drop the course beyond a #5 statewide rating.

Maybe someone can explain to me how Kingsley finishes 20th on the Digest ratings listing for the state. Truly remarkable for ignorance IMHO.

[David Wigler]

Matt,

Six months ago we debated the huge mistake of Kingsley ad nausem and concluded that it completely the fault of Tom Huckaby and he should bear full responsibilty for it.

I hope you did not interpret my comments to be Lawyerly.  I just do not get how High Pointe (as it exists today - not as it once was or might be again) is in the top 20 in Michigan.

I think an argument could be made for Crystal Downs, Kingsley, and Dunes Club (From What I have heard) and Arcadia (Although I do not buy it).  OH South cannot fall further than 5th by anyone with their sanity left.

[THuckaby2]

Matt,

Six months ago we debated the huge mistake of Kingsley ad nausem and concluded that it completely the fault of Tom Huckaby and he should bear full responsibilty for it.

And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.  

[David Wigler]

Tom,

Thank you for one of the finest comments ever made on GCA (Even if it was made in jest).  My two biggest GCA pet peeves are the trumpeting of courses that people have never seen (Happens most frequently when the course is designed by Tom Doak - See High Pointe or is a very private club designed by one of the big names and the comments are usually followed by a "... can anyone help me play here") and bashing of courses people have never seen (Happens most frequently on any thread participated by Tom MacWood  ) and that I was guilty of years ago at Cascata.

I am adding your comment to my profile as a reminder to myself to try my best to limit my comments to courses that are under my realm of experience.

[THuckaby2]

Glad you liked it, Dave.  

Of course my reply is DAMMIT WHEN AM I GONNA GET MY SORRY BUTT OUT THERE AND SEE THIS COURSE, among the many many others well worth seeing relatively near your home....

The great state of Michigan apparently has many great golf courses, and I remain ignorant of all of them.

TH

[Jeff_Mingay]

David,

In my view, High Pointe is a great golf course. Sure, it's evolved away from Tom Doak's original vision, but there are still some fantastic holes there. Many holes are among my favourites anywhere, including: 3, 6, 7, 9, 12, 13, 14, 16, and 17. In fact, the tee shot at 18 is the only thing I really don't like about High Pointe.  

It might not be in your state top 10, but name 20 golf courses in Michigan better? Anxious to see your list...

[David Wigler]

David,

In my view, High Pointe is a great golf course. Sure, it's evolved away from Tom Doak's original vision, but there are still some fantastic holes there. Many holes are among my favourites anywhere, including: 3, 6, 7, 9, 12, 13, 14, 16, and 17. In fact, the tee shot at 18 is the only thing I really don't like about High Pointe.  

It might not be in your state top 10, but name 20 golf courses in Michigan better? Anxious to see your list...

Jeff I have done this several times but I will again (This always turns into a fun debate).  To save hair splitting, I will do it in groups:

1 - 7 Best of the Best (Bulletproof top 100's): Oakland Hills, Crystal Downs, Arcadia Bluffs, Kingsley Club, Pointe O Woods, Franklin Hills, Dunes Club

8 - 9 Very good courses that top 100 lists should not be embarrased about including: Bay Harbor Links/Quarry (Although a huge missed opportunity as the piece of property was good enough to produce a top 20 course in the US), Indianwood Old

10 - 16 Courses just outside GW's top 100 modern or classical: Barton Hills, UofM, Meadowbrook, Plum Hollow, TreeTops Smith, Oakland Hills North, Lost Dunes

17 - 23 Additional courses I feel are better than HP: Tullymore, Wuskowan, CC Detroit, Radrick Farms, Orchards, Heather, Legend

Additional courses that I have been told by many people are superior to HP but I have not played: Black Lake, Lakewood Shores, Red Hawk, Forest Dunes (Although it should be penalized for the stupidest name in history).  That is 27 total that I think the concensus would be are better than HP.

Courses that HP is comparable to (Personal preference would determine if it is higher or lower): Black Forest, TreeTops Fazio, Shepards Hollow, Elk Ridge, Birmingham CC, Sharf, Little Traverse Bay.  My taste would put HP between 28 - 35.

Hope that answers your question.  

[Nick_Ficorelli]

I agree alot with David and Jeff.If I was called to play my 2nd round of the day,I'd leave Frankfort and head to Franklin Hills and that would be as good as its gets in Hockeytown for me.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Dave,

C'mon... I know this is subjective, and thus, my comments are based on my personal opinion, but...

Arcadia Bluffs
Pointe O' Woods
Bay Harbor (!!!!!!!)
Indianwood Old
Barton Hills (!!!!!!)
UofM
Meadowbrook (!!!!!!)
Plum Hollow
Treetops (any course there)
Oakland Hills North
Birmingham CC (!!!!!!)
Little Traverse Bay (!!!!!)
Lakewood Shores, ahead of High Pointe?!?!

Nope. Not in my humble opinion.

Again, this is a subjective exercise. But I won't succumb  

[Steve Lang]

 

Can't comment about most of the down state courses, but really, while Doak's HP and BF have suffered under maintenance practices and just some plain investment of $.. they're still great tracks, and now have more competition for consideration.

But I think the Michigan PGA's Section Tourney schedule gives some additional good "others" to consider..  It seems they're always upstate however for the Mich Open..

[David Kelly]

I have only played two courses in the state - Crystal Downs and The Kingsley CLub but I did tour Lost Dunes and was impressed.

Nobody mentioned Boyne Highlands which I remember in the 70s and 80s as being highly ranked.  Has it just been surpassed by other Northern Michigan courses? Is there anything to it or was it just a hyped up resort course like Doral Blue Monster, Greenlefe, La Costa and other places that used to be highly ranked?

[Joe Hancock]

David,

Fair question concerning Boyne. I will assume you mean the Heather course? It's an RT Jones course, and I've played it a number of times during Michigan Pro-Ams.

I thought about it several times while discussing the Michigan "List" courses, but for some reason didn't throw it into the mix. I really like the course, and several holes make you choose angle of attacks and distances off tees. I think it may be a case of peer pressure for me, you know, no one else mentioned it so why should I? Anyway, I enjoy The Heather more than the other Boyne Highlands offerings by quite a margin.

David, I think you should make a return trip to Michigan this summer and see a few more of our states offerings!

Take care,

Joe

[David Wigler]

I have only played two courses in the state - Crystal Downs and The Kingsley CLub but I did tour Lost Dunes and was impressed.

Nobody mentioned Boyne Highlands which I remember in the 70s and 80s as being highly ranked.  Has it just been surpassed by other Northern Michigan courses? Is there anything to it or was it just a hyped up resort course like Doral Blue Monster, Greenlefe, La Costa and other places that used to be highly ranked?

David,

The Boyne Highlands course is called The Heathers.  I had it in the 17 - 23 in the state and ahead of High Pointe in my list.  It is not a world class golf course but it is still very good (Probably one of the best 500 courses in the US).

[Matt_Ward]

David Kelly:

To give you a clearer picture on the advancement of MI
golf -- let me just say that at a bare minimum courses like Arcadia Bluffs and The Kingsley Club are as far ahead, if not further, of Boyne Highlands / The Heathers as Rustics Canyon is ahead of much of the slop that touts itself as quality public golf in SoCal.

You need to return to MI because things have indeed moved ahead in most cases.

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