Southern Pines vs Pine Needles

[Scott Kraus]

Based on the positive review I read in this site, I went this past Wednesday to play Southern Pines.I am glad I did - I had never heard of it and thought it was indeed a "charming" layout. However...I found your write-up misleading in spots. For instance, I hit an 7 iron into the 4th hole when you said your best drive would be required to bring the green in reach in two? Also, the course played too short to be given such a glowing review. (My handicap is now 7 but I still don't hit it further than 240 yards off the tee).Many of the tees were elevated and the course if anything played shorter than its 6,300 yards.I note Pine Needles isn't reviewed. Have you played it and if so, you don't think Southern Pines is a more complete test than Pine Needles?  

[Ted_Sturges]

Scott,You've just discovered the best kept secret in Pinehurst.  In my view, Pine Needles is better than Southern Pines, but I think Ran would disagree.  I have considered Southern Pines the third best course in town, which I think is high praise in a very good neighborhood.

[Ran Morrissett]

Scott,I am glad you liked it and you can thank Ted Sturges. Other than Brad Klein, Ted is still the only person I know who had even heard of the course (at least prior to the start of this year). The write-up was based on playing the course in January and, as was noted, perhaps it is a better winter course as it stretches it out some. For instance, I killed a drive and had a 3 iron into the 4th and I hit my driver about the same length as you.I walked away thinking it was slightly better than Pine Needles, but I think I'm by myself on that one. As you say, maybe it does play too short in summer whereras Pine Needles has several hundred more yards to ask those few extra questions. Still, I'm not too sure. Pine Needles gets awfully flat toward the end...I look forward to playing both this Christmas back to back.And yes, Pine Needles would be a good one to write up simply because so much around the greens is still pure Ross. Some very good golfers like David Eger swear by Pine Needles, so there must be something to it.Ted,"...a very good neighborhood"???!! Pinehurst is the capital of mediocre golf. It has No. 2, Tobacco Road (the new Strantz which is fun), the two discussed here, and then....???You will have to wait until the Cathage Club is built before you can say it's in a very good neighborhood. That is, unless you like llamas?

[Ted_Sturges]

Ran,Pinehurst #2 in and of itself makes this a special neighborhood.  Beyond that, how about:  Pine Needles, Southern Pines, Mid Pines, Pinehurst #1, and Pinehurst #3.  I know some of the latter are short, but there is some pretty neat stuff out there.Beyond that, I must say I actually liked the Legacy Club, which I believe was Nicklaus Jr.'s first solo effort (I wasn't expecting much and was pleasantly surprised).I'm not a Rees Llama-liker, but the summation of what is listed above provides the golfer with (a) one of the best courses in the world, (b) 2 other Ross gems, (c)  3 other interesting works of Mr. Ross, and (d) another pretty good golf course to play if you want more.  I consider that a good neighborhood if not a very good neighborhood.

[Ran Morrissett]

A "good" neighborhood is agreed then. The key thing with all those course is that you can at least get on them.What other areas in the US offer a selection of 4/5 courses that you could and would actually like to play?Kohler, Pebble Beach and Kiawah? I guess Myrtle Beach, but that is golf cart city.However, if you want to play 8/9 quality courses, it's a flight to either the UK or Oz.

[Bob Ellington]

Don't forget Pinehust No. 7 & No. 8, both of which my group enjoyed playing last year. For a single digit handicap player, No. 7 is more dramatic and challenging than most in the Pinehurst area.The only problem with No. 8 is the greens fee - it was $225 for a round there last October. Still, our group thought it was the second best in the greater Pinehurst area. I have also heard very good reports on Tobacco Road, even though their clubhouse burned down two months ago. It opened after our trip so we didn't play it, but we will next time.

[Ran Morrissett]

Bob's response represents a crucial moment in the developement of this Discussion Group. No matter how dumb someone's comments, he has a right to say them. Bob, WE MUST DEFEND YOUR RIGHT TO BE WRONG.First, in Bob's defense, he hits the ball further than any tour player I've ever seen (one example: my old home club, Country Club of Virginia, the 14th hole on the James River course is a par three slightly downhill across a ravine. It measures 195 from the back and don't be short. In 1989 or so, I hit a good 3 iron onto the back edge - Bob hit a carried a ball into the heart of the green with a 7 iron!!) But I digress.... Perhaps Bob - and you have to help us here - you are saying that only No.7 and No. 8 have sufficient yardage to challenge you? I assume both are over 7000 yards from the back markers.I haven't played No.8 (and at $225 I won't be) but surely No.7 lacks a key feature: good golf holes that you would like to play again and again? I know the ground does up and down a lot but so what? The resulting approach shots to maybe 5/6 uphill greens gets repetitive. As usual, the bunkering fails to inspire unless the superfluous waste area along the par three 16th hole thrills you. Compare that layout to either Pine Needles or Southern Pines where the holes effortlessly flow across the terrain rather than attack it like at No.7. Bottom line: both Ross courses represent a 36 hole day whereas No. 7 is a slog just to get through the first 18.Ted S., if you read this, is it ok if we stick to Southern Pines/Pine Needles on New Year's or do you want to bring in the new millenium with a Rees/Fazio daily double combo instead??!?Bob, treat the 490 yard holes at SP/PN as par fours and you will love them. Otherwise, just seek therapy.

[Ted_Sturges]

The previous post also is an important moment for this discussion.  I believe it is the first time Ran and I are in substantial agreement on something (other than the fact that I made him look good with my intros to Southern Pines and Yeamans Hall).Ran, I'll vote for PN and SP on New Years, followed by Riverfront and Beechtree.  Should be a great trip if we can complete the round at Beechtree without killing each other.

[Craig]

I went with a group of golfers to the Pinehurst area earlier this year and we had the pleasure of playing Pine Needles, Mid Pines and Tobacco Road. A couple of us played Talomore and for that I hope we will be forgiven. We were supposed to play Southern Pines but were rained out. I thought both Pine Needles and Mid Pines were fabulous courses and would play them again and again. Tobacco Road had more blind shots than I have ever seen on one course. It was an interesting side trip for architectual curiosity but nothing I would want to play again and again. I wish we had had the time to play Southern Pines it sounds like we missed a good one.

[John Morrissett]

Back to the main point: Pine Needles or Southern Pines?I played the former in the snow a few years ago and the latter in June at Ran's encouragement.  Needless to say, my views of how each played might be skewed because of the weather.  I do agree with Scott -- that SP is rather short; however, as Ran points out, the finishing holes at PN (14-17) aren't charmers.PN is probably the better course, although I hesitate somewhat stating such since this perception is based to a large degree on length and difficulty (two criteria we try  shun).  I'll put it this way: I would rather pay $27 to play Southern Pines than $80 + to play Pine Needles.

[Craig]

I actually preferred Mid-Pines to Pine Needles, but for the money I don't think Southern Pines would be the way to go. The brunch at Mid-Pines is awesome.

[John Morrissett]

I must confess to playing Mid Pines the day after a few inches of snow melted, so my view might well be skewed again.  However, Mid Pines came across as fairly rudimentary with not quite the sophistication and detail around the greens as other Ross courses in the area.  It is certainly enjoyable, but I don't remember any stand-out holes (nor do I remember any bad holes).The stretch of 1-13 at Pine Needles is just too strong for Mid Pines (and many other courses).  The deep bunkering and more dramatic greens at Southern Pines give it a clear edge over Mid Pines.