[David_Tepper]

The Scottish PGA Tartan Tour will stage the Northern Open at the Skibo Castle/Carnegie Club for the first time on June 14.  There is a good story about the event and all the changes that have been made to the course at:

www.northern-times.co.uk

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I love the place and the great people who work there especially Allan Grant. However to consider that course anything better than average is being too kind. It was put together without a really good routing. There are two different green surfaces. There are some very good holes and some really average to poor ones, especially much of the first 7 or so.

[Bob_Huntley]

John,

What hole is it that you hit to the green and having putted out, reverse direction and have a lengthy walk back to the tee? for the next hole?

All in all, I cannot imagine that having played it once, that one would give up another round at Dornoch to play it again.

[ForkaB]

JB

I respectfully and totally disagree (except, of course, as to the qualities of my good friend Alan Grant)

I think that the 1st nine is by far the better one, and that the course runs out of steam the closer it gets back to the clubhouse, and Steel tries to (or was told to try to) hug the Loch.  16 is boring and 17, and 18 while feted by the hydrophilic are very average golf holes.  Skibo (the course)could have been a nice little Nairn-like gem (when Nairn was a nice little gem), but it got too pretentious and couldn't really carry it off.  That being said, hopefully the work that is being done by McKenzie and Steele will polish off the rough edges.  Also, as I have said previously, they also have a very fine new greenkeeper (Gary Gruber) who has and will continue to polish up the place.

While Skibo will never reach Dornoch's standards (the land just ain't good enough), it is a very good golf course now, and with the right sort of investment of money and loving care, could well reach, say, Western Gailes standards in the not so distntt future.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Bob I think it is 4 or 5. You walk like 400 hundred yards backward and across a little road to a tee for a hole that could have been layed out anywhere on the property. Rich surely you are having a moment of delusional love for the land up north and not really trying to put it in the class of Western Gailes. There is no architect that could do that without completely redoing the front nine and the last three holes. Or at least changing the par on 17 to 3  and 18 to 4. 9 to 15 are good to very good golf holes. There is a par 3 on the front that has a cool trap in front of it. The front nine routing is just horrible. Bob just picked the worst example. Alan Grant please help your friend out of his fog. this is with all due respect of course. lol

[Tom_Doak]

Rich:

If you were going to play 10 rounds in the Dornoch area in a week's visit [and never go back] how would you distribute them?  Would Skibo even get one?

For certain I would play at Brora once or twice before I thought about Skibo.  I'm interested to hear if Rich would put Golspie or Tain in there at all.

[ForkaB]

JB

If you take a look at the link in David T's initial post, you will see that they are changing the routing and two of the holes.  I think it will be a big improvement, but let's wait and see.  I love Western Gailes as much as any man, even though it is not as good (IMHO) as it was when I first played it in 1978 before the alterations.  Skibo isn't, nor never probably will be, "great" bit it is a very good golf course that will probably only get better under the new ownership and management.  I think the place suffers from both reverse snobbery (i.e. if it's so expensive it can't be great) and well to its proximity to a truly great course, Dornoch.  But, that's just like saying Pebble beach is crap just because it is so near to Cypress, or vice versa.......

Tom D

The whole premise of your question makes me want to weep, but I'll try to answer.

I would include Skibo in one of the 10 rounds, as would I Golspie.  The other 8 would be at Dornoch, including possibly one on the Struie (Maybe playing the old 9 holer as it used to be, which would require some imagination!).  I don't rate Tain that highly.  It's better than most courses in the States, yes, but when you are poilt for choice you have to make choices, and Tain is not one of them.  I'd pick Skibo becuase I think it at least aspires to be a great golf course, which none of the others (outside of RDGC) do.  There is more variety and much more challenge than either Brora or Golspie.  You have to play well to score well at Skibo--you can hack it around at the other contenders and still play to your handicap.  Also, ambience, particularly the views over the Kyle of Sutherland are hard to beat.  As to why Golspie over Brora, well, I've been a champion of Brora on this site for a long time and continue to be.  Brora is still where I will take visitors for a change of pace from Dornoch.  And yet, I've played the course 50+ times and it has sort of reached a plateau in my estimation.  Unique as it is, it is also fairly one-dimensional (smash it and find it, chip and putt and then smash it and find it again....).  It is also noticeably short these days, what with technology and a few years of drought.  Golspie, on the other hand, at least has variety in its favor, as well as more really great holes than Brora.  Also a  better set of green complexes which, in these days of smashball is necessary for shorter courses to hold one's interest.  On my farewell toiur I'd probably stop in for a pint at the Brora clubhouse, but play one round at Golspie, just for old time's sake.

Cheers

Rich

[Dan Grossman]

Having played all of those courses this summer, I would have to say that I would play Tain, Dornoch and Brora all before I played another round at Skibo.  We all came away a bit disappointed from the Skibo course.  It was nice and peaceful, but that was the highlight.  (And the breakfast sandwich that they brought us on #14, that was good too.)
Golspie is a bit tougher.  Golspie has some wonderful holes, but it also has some pretty bland holes.  
Come to think of it, I would play Golspie again before Skibo.  When you are walking, the routing becomes a huge issue.  There are lots of walks between tees and greens and it takes away from the experience.

[Stan Dodd]

Rich/Dan,
What are the fees and access for Skibo? And where is the golf clubhouse? I drove inand out the  main drive way and did not see it.
Stan

[Dan Grossman]

Fees are really expensive, I think.  I don't know specifically what I paid since I paid for all my greens fees in one lump.  Maybe 200 lbs, or so?  I don't think access was that difficult, our tour coordinator set it up for us.  

Finding the club house is another story.  There is small road and a sign pointing towards some ferry that you ahve to go down.  It was a miracle we found it.

[ForkaB]

Stan

Normally to play one has to stay at Skibo Castle, which is very nice but costs upwards of $1,000/day.  There are other ways of getting on, as Dan implies.  I think the going rate is about $200, but wouldn't know for sure since I've never paid it!

There is only only long walk at Skibo--from the 5th green to the 6th tee, and its far less physically demanding than the walk from 6 to 7 at Dornoch.  There are a few other slightly awkward ones, but as has been said above, the routing is being changed.  Let's wait and see.

You get to Skibo by taking the Meikle Ferry road which is the last right before you hit the bridge driving from Dornoch to Tain, or you can drive past the Castle through the grounds, but this latter route is not recommended for amateur bull-shitters.

[Stan Dodd]

Rich,
I was an amatuer bullshitter as I did not take the dram that was offered as I drove up to door.
I am taking my son back to Dornoch as his graduation gift.  We are staying 8 days ending with the Sinclair Cup.  What would you reccomend as a golf plan?
Stan

[ForkaB]

Stan

You've probably played more golf up in Dornoch over the past 5 years than I have, so take these with a grain of salt!  That begin said....

1.  If you're playing in the Sinclair Cup, play well!
2.  If not, get out and watch the others play, from vantage points such as:
  --the 2nd back tee, form which you can see approaches to the 1st, shots to the 2nd and people searching for hier balls on the right of the 18th
  --behind the 11th green, where you can see shots into that great complex, 1st and 2nd shots to the 6th, tee shots on the 12th and approaches to the 5th
  --on the 14th tee
  --behind the 14th green
  --behind the 15th
3.  Play Dornoch as much as you can and want to
4.  Have at least one round over the Struie, preferably in hte late afternoon
5.  Play Brora and Golspie if you wish, but don't sweat it if you can't
6.  Have at least one late night session with Euan Currie at the Burghfield House Hotel
7.  Take a day trip to Durness through Lairg and then back across the top of Scotland and down through Wick adn Helmsdale adn home.  Play Durness if you can.
8.  Go watch the salmon leaping at Shinn Falls
9.  Get one of the primo seats overlooking the 1st fairway and sit there for a few hours with your choice of beverages adn reading material
10.  Watch cricket on the telly
11.  Walk on the beach
12.  Practice putting from 80 yards in
13.  Try to hit the helicopter shot off a tight lie
14.  Try to think of all the possible ways of getting your ball onto the 14th green from 100 yards out
15.  Use the CLAW(tm)

I'm sure I'll think of others......

[David_Tepper]

Whitey-

If you have never played Fortrose & Rosemarkie on the Black Isle, I would highly recommend it.  A very fun course in a truly spectacular setting. The course sits on a spit of land that sticks so far out into the Moray Firth you feel like you a playing golf on an island floating at sea.  It is about a 40-minute drive south of Dornoch.

David Tepper

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Rich, out of respect for you and Allan, I will let them finish the renovation before declaring my opinion. I still would play 7 Dornoch, 1 Brora, 1 Golspie, 1 Skibo if for no other reason than to enjoy the ambiance which is Skibo. I might feel the need for more of RDGC even at 7.

[SteveC]

Rich,

Your top 15 was beautiful. Give me large portions of Dornoch, Euan, and a sprinkling of the surroundings.

Still waiting here for another day as nice as 2 Tuesdays ago.

Cheers.

[Darren_Kilfara]

Wow...I didn't expect the revisionist knives to come out against Brora so soon! If I had ten rounds in the Dornoch region, I'd play eight at Dornoch and two at Brora and wouldn't worry about anything else. (Tain and Golspie are marginally interesting, but neither can hold a candle to Brora. Caveat: I haven't played Skibo, although I'm pretty sure that I'm never going to go out of my way to see it.) Perhaps my opinion of Brora would be less than it is if I were a member there or had played it 50+ times, but its only real failing is difficulty, and as I've said before, I believe golf is difficult enough without feeling one needs to court difficult golf courses.

(Upon reflection, I think perhaps Rich took the "you" in Tom's question to mean him personally, rather than a more generic "you" to whom he is giving advice, so perhaps my above paragraph isn't necessary.)

Cheers,
Darren

[THuckaby2]

 

Still so little love for Tain here.  Man I enjoyed that course.  But to each his own....

 

David Tepper and I remain soulmates in appreciation of Fortrose & Rosemarkie.  Golf need not ever be more fun that it is there.

As for the rest, Rich Goodale puts it in great perspective as always.  Stan you sure as hell can't go wrong just being clay and letting him mold you.  

TH

[ForkaB]

Darren

Your paragraph wasn't not necessary.  I think it's pretty clear that Tom D was asking for my personal opinion--about Skibo, Brora, Golspie and Tain.  He can chime in to prove me wrong, if he wishes.  I respect your feeling about Brora, since I used to have it too (in total conflict with most of my Dornoch friends who see it as a goat track whcih is inferior to Golspie).  I've changed my mind, which is a prerogative for all of us, non?

[Darren_Kilfara]

One of these days, I'm gonna have to get back up to Golspie (and perhaps Tain). Perhaps I've shortchanged it (them) by only playing it (them) once, non?

[Brad Klein]

A group of us recently spent a week in the area, and here's the relative rankings of the seven courses we played.

1. Dornoch
2. Moray-Old at Lossiemouth
3. Nairn
4. Brora
5. Tain
6. Fortrose & Rosemarkie
7. Skibo

[David_Tepper]

Darren-

I am a big Golspie fan, as I have a soft spot for underdogs. I have been a non-resident member there for the past 2 years. At 140 pounds per year, that is a very sweet deal by San Francisco Bay Area standards. I like the setting and scenery at Golspie.  It does not get anywhere near the play that Dornoch (and probably Brora too) gets. I like that you can show up there early on a weekday morning and pretty much have the place to yourself.

As for the actual golf course, I think the five par-3's at Golspie are especially good. I think they compare rather favorably to the par-3's at both Dornoch and Brora, which is a high standard.  #16 could be the best par-3 in the Highlands.

#9 is a very good par-4 lined by heather on both sides of the fairway and a super green site.

IMHO, #14 & #15 (par-4s) are the two weakest holes on the course from a GCA stand point, although they are tough holes to play in 8 strokes. They are basically just slogs back and forth across an open field.

There is a sizeable dunes/linksland area to the south of the course that is part quarry and part dirt-bike racing track. I would LOVE to see the golf club get enough land from there to put in two holes to replace #14 & #15. That could really upgrade the course big-time.  

DT

[SPDB]

Does anybody know how de Savary is doing with these clubs/resorts? I think I had heard that he sold Stapleford Park, but at last count it seemed as though he still controlled Skibo, Carnegie Abbey, Cherokee Plantation, and, now, Abaco.

I agree with what people have said about the staff. I became friends with de Savary's aide de camp (quite literally, the guy was an ex-navy admiral) and he's a first rate gentleman.

[David_Tepper]

SPDB-

Click thru to the Northern Times article. The article on Skibo does mention Skibo/Carnegie was sold to a new group of members/investors last fall. The primary institutional investor behind Skibo had an option to put the property up for sale after 5 years to get their money out and did so. I do not know if de Savary has any stake in the new ownership group or not.

At the very least, it appears the new owners are interested in upgrading the golf course. I believe before selling Skibo, de Savary did get approval to build a second 18-hole course there. I am not aware of whether the new owners will follow thru on that.

If you do a search for "Skibo" on the Northern Times website, you should be able to pull up the 3 or 4 articles that ran last fall on Skibo/Carnegie changing hands.

DT

[ForkaB]

SPBD

De Savary is completely out of Skibo, and he only had a very small financial interest when the property flipped (most of it was owned by some Japanese Insurance company, I think).  There already is a snmall second course there (Monk's Walk?).  There has been talk of a 3rd, and it may well eventually be built.  The new owners have well in excess of 5000 acres to play with!

David

Agree fully re: your assesment of Golspie.

Brad

You must have brought a lot of angry young (or grumpy old) men with you on your trip to Dornoch.  Tain better than Skibo?  Give me a break............

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