[ForkaB]

It seems to me that we are all missing the point.  For 99.9% of all golf courses there should be no bunkers, as they are not natural to the terrain.  This quite nicely solves the conundrum as to where to place the rakes.

[Mike_Cirba]

Dan;

One should always be courteous and do whatever is the local custom.  For instance, at Pine Valley or Sand Hills I always tried to smooth over footprints I'd made.  

However, the pendulum has swung way too far in the other direction, with the expectation of perfect, consistent playing conditions in a hazard.  

That's patently absurd, don't you think?

[Lou_Duran]

JohnV,

What are the rules for dropping a ball in a bunker?

In the situation where it is up against a rake, don't you just remove the rake and if the ball moves drop it closes to the original point?  What if the ball rolls more than two club lengths?   Do you drop it again, and after the second time place it closest to the spot where the ball was dropped?

If one is taking an unplayable lie in a bunker, you still have all the options as any other unplayable right, with the exception that you can't take it out of the bunker unless you choose to replay the original shot, right?

[Dan Kelly]

That's patently absurd, don't you think?

Yes. Absolutely.

I agree with you! Get rid of the rakes! Smooth things out with your feet!

And you architects: Quit building so many and such huge decorative bunkers that take half-an-hour to rake/foot-smooth.

[John_Cullum]

JohnV,

What are the rules for dropping a ball in a bunker?

In the situation where it is up against a rake, don't you just remove the rake and if the ball moves drop it closes to the original point?  What if the ball rolls more than two club lengths?   Do you drop it again, and after the second time place it closest to the spot where the ball was dropped?

If the lie of the ball is interfered with by the rake, move the rake, if the ball moves, replace it. You don't drop unless the ball is at rest on the rake.

[Rob_Waldron]

Rakes should be placed OUTSIDE of bunkers. Primarily because they then become an obstruction outside of a hazard and make for an easy ruling. All rakes in a bunker do is cause confusion and additional depressions in the sand.

As far as the mowing staff having to get off their equipment...sorry for them, golf courses are there for the golfers not the employees.

[DPL11]

This is the oldest and most ridiculous topic at all clubs, everywhere. Superintendents cringe everytime this comes up at a winter greens committee meeting, because it never comes up in season when tourny's, keeping grass alive, etc. are happening.

Who cares. It's personal preference. If they are out, maintenance workers have to move them in to mow, and when they are in, bunker workers have to move them out to rake.

Most superintendents just want the club they work for to make a decision.

Doug

[Pat Brockwell]

The USGA has it right. OUT.  From a maintenance standpoint the question is a wash.  Either the mowers have to stop and move the rake or the bunker crew has to move 'em.   If bunker maintenance frequency is greater than mowing frequency keeping them out is more efficient, and of course rulings are simpler.  

Personally I'm in favor of elimination of rakes, but then as a superintendent it all comes out of my budget and makes many golfers feel entitled to a perfect lie, even in a "hazard".  Let us eliminate rakes and stop the culture of entitlement and victimhood.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

The USGA has it right. OUT.  From a maintenance standpoint the question is a wash.  Either the mowers have to stop and move the rake or the bunker crew has to move 'em.   If bunker maintenance frequency is greater than mowing frequency keeping them out is more efficient, and of course rulings are simpler.  

Personally I'm in favor of elimination of rakes, but then as a superintendent it all comes out of my budget and makes many golfers feel entitled to a perfect lie, even in a "hazard".  Let us eliminate rakes and stop the culture of entitlement and victimhood.  

I agree with all of your points, especially the maintainance issue, and especially in locations with moderate to heavy rainfall, where bunker maintainance must be done daily.

[Brock Peyer]

Don't hit it in any bunkers and then you won't need to worry about it.

[texsport]

Rakes should be placed in the bunkers to avoid deflecting a ball into a bunker.

The most interesting rake innovation I've seen are sunken rake holders beside bunkers. The handle goes down a sunken tube, the rake head sits in a slightly depressed rectangular depression, leaving the rake end lying flush to the ground.

Texsport

[Patrick_Mucci]

Texsport,

I've seen those too.

An immovable obstruction just waiting for a ruling, at a location destined to attract balls.

Remember too, that rakes in bunkers can deflect balls that hit them back out of the bunker as well.

[texsport]

Texsport,

I've seen those too.

An immovable obstruction just waiting for a ruling, at a location destined to attract balls.

Remember too, that rakes in bunkers can deflect balls that hit them back out of the bunker as well.

Pat

If the course will have that many tournaments you'd need rulings but otherwise just drop from the rake holder.

The solution to this whole question is obvious! For non-tournament play keep the rakes in the bunkers. For tournament play keep the rakes out of the bunkers.

But, as an everyday policy, if you have riding mowers and a well bunkered course, rakes outside could mean 20 mower stops per hole. If you've got unlimited money for extra mowers and personel-do what you want.

Texsport

[Patrick_Mucci]

Texsport,

If you have the rakes in the bunkers, and rake with a sand pro don't you have to move the same number of rakes ?

And, do you cut your roughs daily ??

Do you maintain your bunkers daily ?

[texsport]

You've got really dedicated, fast moving maintenance people at your course. Can you ship your crew to me?

Texsport

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas,

One of the big selling points to triplex or riding green mowers was the labor savings.

Remember, you're asking minimum wage workers to repeat a process on a daily basis, with the same diligence you expect in the performance of the lawyers in your firm.

Labor costs and costs affiliated with labor can mount up.

One only has to look at Lehigh to see the costs associated with maintaining all of the flower beds and decorative areas around tees, greens, etc., etc..

Maintainance costs are a real concern, and they aren't heading lower.

Just look at green budgets today, in comparison to 10-20 and 30 years ago.   It's the same golf course, but costs have skyrocketed.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Texsport,

When it's 3 degrees out, you'd be surprised how fast the crew can move.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, what are we talking about here in real terms and as a percentage of total budget?.

With budgets running $ 1,000,000 to $ 1,600,000 and higher, labor represents a large component of those costs.
Remember that with labor comes taxes, benefits, insurance, and other related costs.

With a crew of 14 to 24 or more, the efficient supervision and use of labor is important.

Having a sand pro operator approach a bunker, dismount his machine, move all of the rakes in the bunker, then get back on his sand pro, mechanically rake the bunker, then dismount and hand rake the edges, and replace the rakes back in the bunker, can take a lot of time.   And, if the golf course is bunker intensive, with capes and bays and odd configurations, or the bunkers are susceptible to erosion from natural rainfall or green irrigation, the time required increases.
Or, if the bunkers have rocks that percolate through the soil, then sometimes a seine like device must be used to extract them from the sand, or more labor intensively, they can be extracted by hand.  Add to this the difficulty, labor and cost in maintaining large steep faced bunkers, or bunkers prone to accumulating water, from nature or from man

Add to this, the noise abatement restrictions that a town can have, prohibiting motorized or loud noises before 7:00 am, and the conflict created by increasing pressure on golf courses to open up earlier, requiring earlier maintainance.

Previously, at 5:00am or 6:00 am the sand pro operator could go about his job, but, if he has to start after 7:00am, and golfers are on the golf course, now he has to stop and wait for them to pass before he can continue with his task.  Since he's on the clock, this drives your labor costs up.

Everything looks easy on paper or to outsiders, but when you get into it, there are a lot of complicating factors which continue to drive costs up.

The demands on the superintendent to ready the golf course for play, earlier and earlier, and the constraints on his budget, coupled with an abundance of existing and emerging regulatory restrictions make his job more difficult then ever, and have driven costs up substantially over the years.

I'm not privy to cost structures or any of that stuff, so whatever I say is just (hopefully) educated guesses.  I ain't no pro and I ain't on any greens committee.  

Is $973 a year a reasonable guess, or is that nuts and it's more like $5-10K?  I just don't know.  That's why I asked.

Each golf course is unique so I don't want to hazard a guess with respect to a single maintainance practice.

But, you're club should make their budgets and annual financial statements available to members, request a copy,
review them and see what costs at your club are.

Remember too, that each club can account for the same item in a different way.  For example, some clubs put health and other benefits in a general category, other clubs assign or dedicate them to each department.  The same for heating, electricity, gasoline and other items.  So, you can't take what one club does and assume that it's industry standard.

I hope this helps

[TEPaul]

Where to place bunker rakes?

Generally, I recommend the nearest trash can!

[RT]

Where to place bunker rakes?

In your bag as your 15th legal club.  Sure some bright spark will come up with a foldable wing structure for the teeth portion to retract down.  Might get a nifty head cover designed for it.

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