[Paul Richards]

Matt:

>Paul -- don't mean to pick on you but you need to really compare the quality of Arcadia Bluffs (on the other side of the Lake) with The Straits and you will find that the former is a much better course -- architecturally than the latter IMHO

As I've previously stated on this thread, Arcadia Bluffs is EXCELLENT.  I would put it in my top 10 modern courses.  Is it better than WS?  Not in my humble opinion.

cheers!

[NAF]

Paul,

I've played Cypress Point and just because the 8th and 9th are great short holes, does NOT mean the 17th at CD would fit in.  First of all it is NOT a Mackenzie hole, it is a Maxwell hole.  Second of all, the 8th and 9th at Cypress are classic holes and let me quote Mr. Morrissett in his discussion of the 17th at Crystal Downs---"Far from a classic".  Again, it is a fun hole to play but a little too over the top even for my quirky tastes.  Second of all, I asked Mike DeVries about it last week and he told me it was not Maxwell's intention to build the hole that way.  I forget the reasoning behind it though.  I can think of tons of short par 4s I'd rather play.  If the hole did not have the views of Crystal Lake and Lake Michigan behind it, one would lose even more respect for the hole.

I don't know how you could criticize one of the most sporting holes at TKC (the 15th) with your commentary.  Obviously, you've played few rounds in the UK where holes like that exist.  I will again quote a portion of Ran's synopsis:

"A player who misses the green short or to the left will face a recovery shot somewhat similar to that on the 14th at Royal Dornoch; no one ever complains that Foxy is 'unfair'! The one legitimate claim some have about the green is that it was built up and created, while all the other green sites were essentially 'found.' Still, full marks to the hole."

I find the duality b/t the 13th as a short par 4 with a HUGE green and the 15th as a longish par 4 with a TINY plateau green quite interesting.  Also because TKC plays hard and fast you aren't hitting a 3 wood into this green.  I recall reaching for a 5 or 6 iron when I played it.  I don't deem it unfair or silly, I view it as sporting.  Come play the 7th at Pennard with me that has the hardest fall away green I've ever seen and ask me if that hole is silly.

Furthermore, the 13th is not memorable besides the green according to your view.  I find the tee shot over the hollow with the green partially blind to be a fun shot.  Besides, you have to weigh up in your head whether you want to go for the green and if you fail then the green becomes almost a hazard for your second shot.

As per CD 9-0 vs. TKC on the back, I see it this way:

10-CD 1up (no doubt)
11-CD 2up (no doubt)
12-CD 1 up (I prefer how #12 at TKC sits in that valley)
13-CD 1 up (I halve the hole, I love the fall away left to right nature of the 13th at CD but find the 13th at TKC to be as inspiring to play)
14-CD 2 up- Great par 3 at CD.
15-CD 2up- here is where we majorly disagree.  #15 is the great par 4 at CD which would fit at Cypress, not #17.  But I find the 'Foxy' like green at number 15 to be its match.
16- CD 1up #16 is the blandest hole although with a nice pitch shot at CD. The redan at TKC is as Dr. Childs referred earlier as a functional hole that plays well.
17- CD 1up  Both are somewhat quirky holes and gambling holes (can you carry the ridge at TKC?)
18- CD 1up- A halve.  Both good finishing holes.

No way is this 9-0.

[Paul Richards]

Noel:

This statement is patently false:

> don't know how you could criticize one of the most sporting holes at TKC (the 15th) with your commentary.  Obviously, you've played few rounds in the UK where holes like that exist.

I've played over 70 rounds - probably well more than that, will have to look it up - on 8 or 9 trips to the British Isles.  That hardly qualifies as "few rounds", does it?

[NAF]

Ben,

If I was condemned to play Bandon, KB and WS, I would play them probably in that order only because KB is at least on the North Sea.  I agree with you about the shaping at KB.  I didnt care for it and I've been criticized by some here for slamming the course.  I'd give it a Doak 6.  The sea views and proximity to St. Andrews taints the place I believe in people's opinions.  When I first got out to KB I couldnt help but believe how manufactured it looked to my eye.  And I've read so much about how "natural" they made it look.  The holes by the farmland had the worst mounding of all.  I'd seen many faux links over the last few years-(Twisted Dune, The Irish Course, WS, Tallgrass) and for whatever reason the work done at KB was easily as noticeable to me then at the other courses.  I guess I played WS so long ago that KB had a slightly greater impact on me as it was more recent which is why you asked me your ?

[NAF]

Paul,

Fine, you answered that part which was tongue in cheek but again we just don't see eye to eye.  I don't understand where your scorn comes from for TKC.  Now that you have played 70ish rounds in the U.K. I can't believe you think the 15th at TKC is silly.  Have you played "Foxy"?

[Paul Richards]

Noel:

>again we just don't see eye to eye

Correct.  And that's OK.  If everyone agreed on every point, there would never be an discussion!!

>I don't understand where your scorn comes from for TKC.

"Scorn" is an incredibly bad word for what I've said about TKC.  I believe I said earlier that it should be ranked in the 60-80 area of the modern top 100 - that hardly reflects a feeling of "scorn"!!


>I can't believe you think the 15th at TKC is silly.

Sorry, but I do.  Dirt was obviously moved to make TKC, so to compare it to Foxy is just plain silly as well.

Foxy is a great hole on one of the best courses in the world - and I doubt that nearly as much dirt was moved to 'build' dornoch - so, with today's equipment, Foxy might never have been built by a modern architect.  #15 at TKC IS a modern course, and, as such, doesn't need to be gimmicky, which it is today.

[Tuco Ramirez]

Hey Paul Richards--

I'm impressed you've played that many rounds in the UK... But I have one problem amigo.. And it bothered me so much that I had to smoke a cigarillo this morning and ponder the idiocy of your statements.  Basically as the tobacco high cleared my thoughts, I came to the following view..

You learned nothing in your 75 rounds in the UK...

I'd rather go play Littlestone which is flat except for the finishing 3 holes than WS!  You'd rather play the manufactured WS in my estimation.

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

Let's analyze your assessment of Wolf Creek versus Shadow Creek.

First, building a course from a dead flat canvas is far easier since you impose one's will provided the $$$ are there. In the case of SC -- that actually happened to the tune of $35 million+.

Second, to rout holes through the pre-existing canyons you find at Wolf Creek took some time and creativity to make sure it could match just right. Dennis and Jon Rider did that quite well -- in fact -- I believe it simply blows the doors off Shadow Creek in the area of engineering and site creation.

Third, let's look at the holes you mentioned. Please tell me what holes at Shadow Creek merit much discussion -- if at all?

Paul you stated ...

Let's review the holes and your comments ...

Selected excerpts from my visit to Wolf Creek:

Some very amazing views from this course. PAUL, WOLF CREEK IS MORE THAN AMAZING VIEWS -- IT IS SIMPLY STELLAR STUFF AND THE COLORS VARY AS THE DAY PASSES BY.

One of the wildest landscapes I've yet seen from any golf course. THE KEY THING IS THAT LANDSCAPE DOVETAILS WITH A FIRST RATE LAYOUT ALTHOUGH I DO CONCEDE THERE ARE A FEW HOLES OF LESSER CHARACTER.

After a rough start, played holes 4-7 in 2-under-par.
PAUL -- FRANKLY HOW YOU PLAYED THE HOLES IS REALLY IMMATERIAL.

#1 excellent starting hole, and #2 is a good follower. THE SECOND IS A BIT MORE THAN SIMPLY GOOD -- IT HAS A PLETHORA OF OPTIONS FOR THE PLAYER TO DECIDE UPON.

Par 3's for the most part are very interesting.  

#3 is not a very good hole - blind, long and uphill. WHAT ARE YOU SAYING? THE HOLE IS GOOD BECAUSE IT IS U-P-H-I-L-L!
YOU GENERALLY PLAY THE HOLE DOWNWIND BUT YOU STILL NEED TO HIT THE SHOT CORRECTLY. I DON'T KNOW WHAT TEES YOU PLAYED BUT ONLY THE VERY LOW HANDICAP PLAYER SHOULD PLAY THE HOLE FROM THE TIPS.

#8 is almost impossible to play - and completely unfair - green surrounded by water and plays about 220 yards - just plain silly. SILLY? THE HOLE FEATURES A 50 FOOT ELEVATION DROP AND ALTHOUGH IT IS QUITE FINICKY ABOUT THE SHOTS THAT WILL BE ACCEPTED YOU NEED TO REALLY STAND AND DELIVER. I PERSOBALLY BELIEVE THE 8TH TO BE ONE OF THE BEST LONG PAR-3'S YOU CAN PLAY. IT SIMPLY WILL NOT SURRENDER TO THE MEEK AND WIMPY SHOTS YOU OFTEN SEE GET AWAY WITH MURDER ON HOLES OF THIS TYPE.

#9 - nowhere to hit the ball - just a plain bad hole. NOWHERE TO HIT? DID YOU NOT SEE THE FAIRWAY IN FRONT OF YOU? THIS IS ANOTHER HOLE WHERE PLAYING THE APPROPRIATE TEE BOX IS IMPERATIVE.

#12 is just an AWFUL par 5.  Completely manufactured with a downhill sloping fairway, falling away into a lake. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THE 12TH -- YOU NEED TO SHAPE YOU SHOT TO MOVE IN CONCERT WITH THE FAIRWAY. THOSE WHO TAKE AN AGGRESSIVE POSTURE AND SUCCEED CAN REACH THE GREEN IN TWO BLOWS. THE PUTTING SURFACE IS ALSO WELL DONE WITH THE NARROW TIER IN THE EXTREME REAR.

Worth the 80-mile trip each way from Vegas?  Maybe. PAUL, YOU NEED TO BE A BIT MORE ANALYTICAL REGARDING THE FINISH. WHAT ABOUT THE GRAND COMBO AT THE THIRTEENTH AND FOURTEENTH HOLES? YOU HAVE A SUPERB SHORT PAR-4 IN A BOX CANYON AND THE 14TH AT WOLF CREEK MIRRORS TO SOME DEGREE THE 16TH HOLE AT BLACK DIAMOND'S QUARRY COURSE.

WHAT ABOUT THE 16TH AND 17TH HOLES AS WELL?

I DO CONCEDE THE FINISHING HOLE AT WOLF CREEK IS REALLY ANTICLIMATIC AND SIMILAR TO THE 18TH AT CYPRESS POINT IN NOT BEING ABLE TO SUM UP THE EXPERIENCE ONE HAS HAD WHEN PLAYING THERE.

SHADOW CREEK IS AN E-N-G-I-N-E-E-R-I-N-G MARVEL -- NO DOUBT. BUT, WOLF CREEK EASILY PROVIDES THE MORE EXCITING AND FUN EXPERIENCE YOU CAN IMAGINE. HOW SHADOW MERITS A TOP TEN POSITION SPEKAS MORE TO ITS ORIGINAL CREATION AND THE SERVICE YOU GET WHEN THERE. THE GOLF EQUATION IS GOOD -- NO DOUBT -- BUT FOR MY $$$$ I'D HEAD TO WOLF CREEK IN A NEW YORK MINUTE.

When time becomes available I'll respond to your comments on Whistling Straits and The Kingsley Club. I do concur with Noel and Geoff -- TKC is much more sophisticated in its overall design and routing. You don't have the over-the-top nature you find with Pete's layout in Wisconsin.

One other thing -- please help me to understand if you have played The Golf Club? Are you saying The Straits is beyond Pete's real gem in Columbus? Say it ain't so because it's not even remotely close in my mind.

[Paul Richards]

Tuco:

You may be onto something there!

As George once said so eloquently, "I am Costanza, Lord of the idiots."

 

[Paul Richards]

Matt:

Please see my response to Tuco.

 


You can nit-pick my comments all you like, but the fact is that YOU AND I DISAGREE.

So what?  

If we agreed on everything then there would be no DISCUSSION at golfclubatlas.com!!!

Glad we had this little tete-a-tete (sp?), but no matter what you say, you aren't going to change my opinion, and, I assume, I won't be changing yours.

So let's just agree that we won't agree - on this topic!

I'm sure there are many others we would agree on and some others we wouldn't, like:

>Are you saying The Straits is beyond Pete's real gem in Columbus? Say it ain't so because it's not even remotely close in my mind.

yes.  that is what i said.  in fact, out of Pete's designs, I have found the Pete Dye Golf Club as well as the River course at Blackwolf to all be better than The Golf Club.

Before you go get all bent out of shape, that doesn't mean I don't think that TGC is wonderful - which i do - but that I like the others better.

That should be good for some more discussion!!

 

[Paul Richards]

Matt:

I said,
>in fact, out of Pete's designs, I have found the Pete Dye Golf Club as well as the River course at Blackwolf to all be better than The Golf Club.

I almost forgot!  Harbour Town is ALSO better than the Golf Club, IMHO.

There - that should be good for some REAL discussion!

 

[Matt_Ward]

Adam C:

I personally believe Shadow Creek is one of the most overrated courses in the USA. It gets far tooooooooo much credit for the engineering and the b*lls by man to build such a thing. There are a few holes of note, but, all in all, SC hangs its hat on how it was created -- not for what was created there. To be totally frank -- I believe Tom Fazio has done much better work with two of his latest efforts -- Glenwild in the Park City area of Utah and Dallas National.

I also believe the stature of The Rawls Course will grow over the course of time. There are enough holes there to make the golfer really think in terms of options and strategies to employ.

The issue with Shadow Creek is the amount of window dressing you find there. It's no different than going to a restaurant that excels at the linen, the silverware, the service but falls far short on the item that counts the most IMHO -- the food!

Back to the matter at hand -- Whistling Straits.

The back nine at TKC is far better than Paul and others are saying. I agree 100% with Noel in his match play assessment of TKC with CD. What's amusing is when people underestimate the qualities of such a unique and superb effort by Mike DeVries. I'm very much looking forward to his new work in Marquette, MI. Again, I don't doubt that The Straits has a number of fine holes but the manner by which the entire site was created and the inability for the holes to appear as if they truly belong to the MI countryside leaves me wondering how it can be put in the top three of modern courses as Paul indicated.

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