If RTJ Jnr had ….

[Thomas Dai]

Now ‘if’ is the middle word in ‘life’ but reports herein and elsewhere of numerous quality courses and new builds on sandy sites around Aitken, SC got me wondering how golf might be different if RTJ Jnr had located ANGC 15/20 miles further east on the opposite side of the Savannah River. ANGC on sand, would it be more akin to Royal Melbourne, although with the A’ standing for another city?
If of course, if ………..

Atb

[Jason Thurman]

[Charlie Goerges]

You had me there for a minute! How dare you subvert our acronym shorthand!

[Adam Lawrence]

You had me there for a minute! How dare you subvert our acronym shorthand!

Yeah I thought the same 

[Tim_Weiman]

Now ‘if’ is the middle word in ‘life’ but reports herein and elsewhere of numerous quality courses and new builds on sandy sites around Aitken, SC got me wondering how golf might be different if RTJ Jnr had located ANGC 15/20 miles further east on the opposite side of the Savannah River. ANGC on sand, would it be more akin to Royal Melbourne, although with the A’ standing for another city?
If of course, if ………..

Atb

Thomas,


How would golf be different if Jones picked a site in Aiken rather Augusta?

[Paul Rudovsky]

I maintain that the word "if" never existed until people who spoke english started playing golf

[Thomas Dai]

On sand Tim.
atb

[David_Tepper]

atb -

I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make here. What does it matter if AGNC is more (or less) similar to Royal Melbourne?

It is my understanding Mr. Jones wanted to make AGNC play very "links like." I think he succeeded in that regard. Given the overall slope of the property and the contours of the greens, where and how far the ball rolls once it lands appears to be a meaningful factor in how the course is played.

DT

[Tim_Weiman]

On sand Tim.
atb

Thomas,


Wasn’t golf in Augusta first developed on sand?

[Kalen Braley]

On sand Tim.
atb

Thomas,

Wasn’t golf in Augusta first developed on sand?

It was an old orchard right?  So I assumed it was built on clay as opposed to sand, which I thought was Thomas' point from the start.

[Charlie Goerges]

If Bobby Jones' course was built on sand, you can imagine a few changes in the history of the Masters and thus in the paths taken by the courses and clubs that have followed their lead over the years. If we accept that Jones' cache would have eventually elevated the Masters regardless of the club's location, then a sandier course might have influenced less of a manicured, green appearance in more run-of-the-mill clubs and courses.


Would that have been better? And if so, in what ways? Is it cheaper to maintain more sand or more manicured green-ness? I don't know.


There are more alternate histories available, what do youse guys think would/could have happened?

[Thomas Dai]

Well done Charlie and Kalen too.
Sand, hence the Royal Melbourne reference.
Atb

[Tim_Weiman]

If Bobby Jones' course was built on sand, you can imagine a few changes in the history of the Masters and thus in the paths taken by the courses and clubs that have followed their lead over the years. If we accept that Jones' cache would have eventually elevated the Masters regardless of the club's location, then a sandier course might have influenced less of a manicured, green appearance in more run-of-the-mill clubs and courses.


Would that have been better? And if so, in what ways? Is it cheaper to maintain more sand or more manicured green-ness? I don't know.


There are more alternate histories available, what do youse guys think would/could have happened?

Charlie,


Again, my understanding is that golf in Augusta was first built at sandy sites decades before Jones selected the site to build Augusta National and surely he was aware of this.


So, one can ask “what if” Jones chose a different site, i.e., a sandy site like Bon Air, but he didn’t and things turned out pretty well.


I don’t know how golf courses in America would have been different if Jones had built, say, the second Bon Air course.

[Charlie Goerges]

If Bobby Jones' course was built on sand, you can imagine a few changes in the history of the Masters and thus in the paths taken by the courses and clubs that have followed their lead over the years. If we accept that Jones' cache would have eventually elevated the Masters regardless of the club's location, then a sandier course might have influenced less of a manicured, green appearance in more run-of-the-mill clubs and courses.


Would that have been better? And if so, in what ways? Is it cheaper to maintain more sand or more manicured green-ness? I don't know.


There are more alternate histories available, what do youse guys think would/could have happened?

Charlie,


Again, my understanding is that golf in Augusta was first built at sandy sites decades before Jones selected the site to build Augusta National and surely he was aware of this.


So, one can ask “what if” Jones chose a different site, i.e., a sandy site like Bon Air, but he didn’t and things turned out pretty well.


I don’t know how golf courses in America would have been different if Jones had built, say, the second Bon Air course.

You're right Tim, these are just counterfactuals for the purpose of discussion. We can't possibly know. But maybe you could take a stab at it for fun?

[A.G._Crockett]

I have no idea what the base of ANGC is, but Augusta itself is on the edge of the Sandhills, and there is even a neighborhood in Augusta named Sandhills.

[Ronald Montesano]

Why would a Georgia fellow build a course in South Carolina?

[Tim_Weiman]

Charlie,


I actually like counter factual discussions, especially with material like WW2 strategy, e.g., what if Hitler didn’t invade Russia or Japan didn’t bomb Pearl Harbor?


But this counter factual loses me: not only was golf in Augusta first built on sand, but the architect Jones selected had already built on sand elsewhere and I have never heard anyone suggest Mackenzie thought the nursery was a bad site.


All that aside, it seems the United States was destined to become a big golf market and that most golf courses would NOT actually be built on sand. Would building the Augusta National Golf Club at the Bon Air site have changed that? I think not.


At best a counter factual argument would really focus on the influence of television on golf course maintenance and the so called “Augusta syndrome”.

[Ronald Montesano]

What Tim writes has traction. It was Clifford Roberts who made the Masters, and he would have made it what it is, regardless of where the course was located. And the Masters is what made Augusta National what it now is.

Another C-F argument could be, what if Clifford Roberts had latched onto the Pinehurst folk, and developed his vision of a great club/tournament there?

[Charlie Goerges]

Tim, then at the very least, perhaps Augusta Syndrome might have ended up as a different sort of malady than it eventually did. But I agree that golf history wouldn’t have been a totally different animal than what it has been. I could also imagine an alternate history where the second golden age started differently or maybe didn’t happen at all as there may have been less to rebel against. But probably not. Just something for me to contemplate while the temperature outside is -7 F windchill.

[Thomas Dai]

If you let the wheels of the the search engine herein grind away long enough, patience is needed, you'll find many a thread highlighting that ANGC is built on clay. You'll also find comments about the heaviness of Georgia clay and the importance of the brick making industry in the Augusta area.
atb

[Tim_Weiman]

If you let the wheels of the the search engine herein grind away long enough, patience is needed, you'll find many a thread highlighting that ANGC is built on clay. You'll also find comments about the heaviness of Georgia clay and the importance of the brick making industry in the Augusta area.
atb

Thomas,


We understand that, but you asked a counter factual question without actually offering your perspective. So let me ask:


Why do you think Jones chose the site he did over sand sites available right in Augusta?


If Jones had selected and built Bon Air #2, what difference would it have made to golf course development in America, if any?