Why is Lawsonia Links better than Arcadia South?

[Ronald Montesano]

1. I know that I posted years back about Let's work harder on thread titles. I would amend that to if they are going to be debates or controversies. I think that my YOK series was oddly-titled, but YOK didn't make anyone dispute the thread title, once it was amended to include the name of the course. I would title this thread Compare/Contrast AS and LOL: two stellar midwest courses from different centuries or something like that.


2. Lawsonia 5 Green




3. Lawsonia 6 Green







4. Lawsonia 12 Green


Tough one to shoot. I don't have anything good from it.

[Sean_A]

I mean, it is, right?

I think you are right Jason, but it's not a cake walk. Lawsonia probably just pips the terrain and greens argument. Where Lawsonia wins hands down is the visuals. Arcadia South almost seems like an endless blend of one hole spread out over a few hundred acres. Part of the problem is the fairway bunkering. It strikes me as overly technical. It leans too far toward plotting around the property. Mind you, I would say the bunkering is the less than strong aspect of Lawsonia. It's not the same as AS as the bunkering is more balanced, but the bunkering around the greens is a bit repetitive.

Without question I prefer Lawsonia, but have to admit AS is interesting and in places highly entertaining.

Ciao

[Brett Meyer]

Arcadia South almost seems like an endless blend of one hole spread out over a few hundred acres. Part if the problem is the fairway bunkering. It strikes me as overly technical. It leans too far toward plotting around the property.

My formulation of this when people have asked me what I thought of Arcadia South was that 'it feels like it was designed by a computer.' Now maybe I'll start saying that it feels like it was designed by ChatGPT.

It's the repetitiveness of the fairway bunkering. Most holes have staggered fairway bunkers, often with another one somewhere in the middle of the fairway. The scheme certainly isn't the same every time, but it always feels like variations on one idea. And usually, you're driving between the bunkers rather than diagonally over them. The 9th stands out because it's one of the only holes where the bunkers clearly are on a diagonal. It would be nice if there were greater variety in the placement and the type of hazards. A few English-style odd mounds and depressions would help Arcadia a lot.

I don't think that the terrain is helping Arcadia too much either. It's very tame, which is another element making the holes feel similar to each other. It's also probably part of the reason why they used so many bunkers in the first place. I agree with most everyone else that the greens are excellent, but in a few visits, the place has always left me feeling a bit cold.

Which is emphatically not the case for Lawsonia. It's helped greatly by much better terrain. And the course uses it to create such great variety, from blindness on the second, to the hill you have to carry to sling your ball forward on the fifth, to the tough carry with the second on 13. Same thing with the bunkers; sometimes there are diagonal carries (6, 13), sometimes they're off to one side or the other (11, 18), sometimes you have to run the gauntlet between them (9, 17). It just feels to me like there's a lot more variety from tee to green. And as Tom mentioned, some of those greens belong in a museum.

Arcadia South is very good, maybe one of the five best public courses in Michigan. But Lawsonia is outstanding; it'd easily be the best public course in Michigan. And I think it's the best in Wisconsin, which is even stronger.

[Matt Schoolfield]

First off, I played (and fully mapped) Lawsonia Links, but not Arcadia, so I can't speak to that, but I will bring what I can to this discussion.

3. Lawsonia 6 Green

Here is the sixth, and I must say, the green is like something I've never played before and I loved it.

The seventh uses the land in a way that shocks players on their first time playing, even if it's not the most amazing hole on the course, it's memorable without some complex nuance, which I think needs to happen on a course. The opposite, of the seventh is the tenth (discussion at 54:38), which is all nuance, and as a half-par hole, forces players to makes some decisions they might not want to.

At risk of contradicting The Fried Egg

I don't think the influence of Andy Johnson here can be overstated. I'm a complete philistine and don't belong on this forum, but the first time I'd even heard of Lawsonia was when Andy and EAL played in late 2018. In this film Andy cannot stop talking about the value of the course, and when you look back at that time, the value is incredible. Using the Way Back Machine, you can see the type of value being offered around that time. From the GolfGreenLake.com specials from August 2018:

For only $300 per couple ($150 per person plus tax) - this package includes:
 
 4 -18 HOLE PASSES - for either the Links or Woodlands courses - includes cart. (2 passes each player)
 
 1 NIGHTS LODGING FOR 2 - at the Acorn Ridge Motel
 
 $40 DINNER CREDIT for 2 - at Langford's Pub, Norton's or Harbor Lights
 
 Use of the Lawsonia Driving Range and Practice Facility

I think all of us could agree that this price, just 5 years ago, is an absurd value.

Lawsonia is trivially worth that price, and likely double it. Currently, however, this price would barely cover the cheapest night's stay and a single round of golf, walking. That isn't to say that Lawsonia isn't worth the higher prices, lord knows I enjoyed my time there and plan to return, but the ranting and raving we heard from Andy has become a more muted, respect for earth moving and history (Club TFE profile).

I think this is why I people might be shocked when they book and play Lawsonia at today's prices, and may be the reason for this post. Andy Johnson's fully justified love of this course has brought so much attention to it, that the value proposition he was so impressed by has diminished as their stature was raised.
 

[PCCraig]

In response to Matt above...


I agree that Lawsonia used to be an incredibly good deal. ~15 years ago we used to drive up there from Chicago in the fall on Banker Holidays and play all day with a cart, with no one else on the course, for something like $65. Pretty surreal, even if the condition of the course was spotty back then.


To be fair to Lawsonia, I did check their rates for a tee time this summer and it clocked in at $125 in prime time. Considering the quality of the course and the investment they've put into it AND that it's a top 75 course in the country according to GOLF...$125 doesn't seem that unreasonable? It has to be less than half of one round at Sand Valley or Kohler, right?


Also, I like to think we put Lawsonia on the map when we hosted the 2011 Midwest Mashie there... 


Either way, looking forward to getting back in about 10 days for The Fried Egg's event there!

[Matt Schoolfield]

I don't think $125 is unreasonable at all, especially when you're throwing in the more than reasonable (and genuinely delicious) food and drink prices, and the cheap motels nearby. I hope I was clear in the last post that I'm a Lawsonia fan.

[Sean_A]

Arcadia South almost seems like an endless blend of one hole spread out over a few hundred acres. Part if the problem is the fairway bunkering. It strikes me as overly technical. It leans too far toward plotting around the property.

My formulation of this when people have asked me what I thought of Arcadia South was that 'it feels like it was designed by a computer.' Now maybe I'll start saying that it feels like it was designed by ChatGPT.

It's the repetitiveness of the fairway bunkering. Most holes have staggered fairway bunkers, often with another one somewhere in the middle of the fairway. The scheme certainly isn't the same every time, but it always feels like variations on one idea. And usually, you're driving between the bunkers rather than diagonally over them. The 9th stands out because it's one of the only holes where the bunkers clearly are on a diagonal. It would be nice if there were greater variety in the placement and the type of hazards. A few English-style odd mounds and depressions would help Arcadia a lot.

I don't think that the terrain is helping Arcadia too much either. It's very tame, which is another element making the holes feel similar to each other. It's also probably part of the reason why they used so many bunkers in the first place. I agree with most everyone else that the greens are excellent, but in a few visits, the place has always left me feeling a bit cold.

Which is emphatically not the case for Lawsonia. It's helped greatly by much better terrain. And the course uses it to create such great variety, from blindness on the second, to the hill you have to carry to sling your ball forward on the fifth, to the tough carry with the second on 13. Same thing with the bunkers; sometimes there are diagonal carries (6, 13), sometimes they're off to one side or the other (11, 18), sometimes you have to run the gauntlet between them (9, 17). It just feels to me like there's a lot more variety from tee to green. And as Tom mentioned, some of those greens belong in a museum.

Arcadia South is very good, maybe one of the five best public courses in Michigan. But Lawsonia is outstanding; it'd easily be the best public course in Michigan. And I think it's the best in Wisconsin, which is even stronger.

I definitely agree RE Arcadia South. The flatness of the terrain lends itself to some mounds and hollows. I also think a long term tree planting scheme is in order. I also agree RE fairway bunkering at Lawsonia.

While I don't share quite the same level of enthusiasm RE Lawsonia as many on this site do, I have a lot of time for the place despite a feeling in the back of my head that the course lacks charm. The same can't be said for the area or the bar, no small reasons why I like Lawsonia.

Ciao