[Kalen Braley]

Cypress Point nearly as much as Chambers Bay, and more than ANGC? Sorry but this is flat out wrong. 

I've walked Cypress and Chambers and they were nowhere near the same category of up and down.

[Jackson C]

Interesting numbers and assuming they are fairly accurate, I take from it that the sequencing of the walk affects perceptions.
I didn't feel in any way that Merion was anything other than a lovely walk.
According to the stats, Merion is very vertical similar to Crystal Downs.  Downs certainly feels like much more of a hike as much of the vertical is over just a couple of holes (8 and 9).

[Jeff Schley]

Kalen yes that was a surprise for me too.

Here is the totals and the elevation is taking for the US Geological Survey:

Min Elevation = 2m, Max Elevation = 52m, Difference = 50m, Total Ascent = 152m

Total Straight Line Walking Distance = 7610 yards = 4.3 miles

Elevation Profile based on SRTM 1 Arc-Second Global Dataset
https://www.provisualizer.com/courses/cypresspoint.php

[Rob Nydick]

Oahu Country Club, routed through a valley between two mountain ranges in 1913, features an overall elevation change of 410 Feet from the 4th Green (280 Feet) to the 15th Tee (690 Feet).  The change is gradual so the course is fairly walkable.  It takes 11 holes of meandering through the valley to get from the lowest point to the highest, but then the golfer benefits from the walk downhill (and prevailing wind) in their return to the clubhouse.


The architect incorporated the prevailing winds and the elevation change into their plans, as many of the shorter holes play uphill and into the wind, with longer holes playing downhill and with the wind.  I felt it was a creative use of the elements to make a 6,000 yard course feel longer.


George Thomas actually has several photos of the course in his book, but unfortunately does not provide commentary (at least in the version that I have).

[Michael Felton]

Shinnecock and NGLA both seem pretty surprising to me.


I'm curious about a few others. Winged Foot, Royal Cinque Ports, Quintero in AZ. Winged Foot for how little, RCP to see how much up and down but never more than a few meters at a time affects it and Quintero because it's got some serious elevation changes on it.

Yes Michael I was surprised with those neighbors in Long Island as well.
Royal Cinque Ports - 34Winged Foot West - 69Winged Foot East - 70Qintero - 152

Fascinating - I'd think RCP covers 34 in just the walk from the 3rd fairway to the 5th tee!

[Sean_A]

Shinnecock and NGLA both seem pretty surprising to me.

I'm curious about a few others. Winged Foot, Royal Cinque Ports, Quintero in AZ. Winged Foot for how little, RCP to see how much up and down but never more than a few meters at a time affects it and Quintero because it's got some serious elevation changes on it.

Yes Michael I was surprised with those neighbors in Long Island as well.
Royal Cinque Ports - 34Winged Foot West - 69Winged Foot East - 70Qintero - 152

Fascinating - I'd think RCP covers 34 in just the walk from the 3rd fairway to the 5th tee!

I assume this is joke?

I am shocked to see Merion coming at 500 feet. There is something up with the measurement.

Ciao

[Wade Whitehead]

LOTS of elevation change at Telluride Golf Club.

WW

[David_Tepper]

Can anyone calculate the change in elevation from the 1st tee of the Lake Course at Olympic down to the 15th tee and then the change in elevation from the 15th tee to the 18th green (and then up to the parking lot)? I think those would be sizable numbers. 

[Jeff Schley]

Shinnecock and NGLA both seem pretty surprising to me.

I'm curious about a few others. Winged Foot, Royal Cinque Ports, Quintero in AZ. Winged Foot for how little, RCP to see how much up and down but never more than a few meters at a time affects it and Quintero because it's got some serious elevation changes on it.

Yes Michael I was surprised with those neighbors in Long Island as well.
Royal Cinque Ports - 34Winged Foot West - 69Winged Foot East - 70Qintero - 152

Fascinating - I'd think RCP covers 34 in just the walk from the 3rd fairway to the 5th tee!

I assume this is joke?

I am shocked to see Merion coming at 500 feet. There is something up with the measurement.

Ciao

Hi Sean I started a new thread that hopefully will lay it out.

[Kalen Braley]

Can anyone calculate the change in elevation from the 1st tee of the Lake Course at Olympic down to the 15th tee and then the change in elevation from the 15th tee to the 18th green (and then up to the parking lot)? I think those would be sizable numbers.

David,

According to Google Earth: (elevation)

1st tee - 214 feet
15 tee - 38 feet
18 green - 118 feet
Parking lot - 200 feet
Bonus: Driving Range - 224 feet

[Matt_Cohn]

What about Moonlight Basin where they had the TV match a few months ago? Wasn't it like 200+ feet on one hole?

[Michael Wolf]

I've never confirmed the story with him directly, but I've heard that when Steve Williams was caddying and working out with Tiger Woods, he had a standing prop bet with fellow caddies that he could run any golf course's cart paths in under an hour. In the version of the story I've heard most often, it was the Plantation Course at Kapalua where he came the closest to losing the bet.


No idea if this is true, but Plantation does seem like it would be a really, really tough walk.


The other candidate that comes to mind would be Kawana's Fuji course. The opening tee shot alone drops 48 yards.

Michael[/size][size=78%] [/size]

[Jeff Schley]

I've never confirmed the story with him directly, but I've heard that when Steve Williams was caddying and working out with Tiger Woods, he had a standing prop bet with fellow caddies that he could run any golf course's cart paths in under an hour. In the version of the story I've heard most often, it was the Plantation Course at Kapalua where he came the closest to losing the bet.


No idea if this is true, but Plantation does seem like it would be a really, really tough walk.


The other candidate that comes to mind would be Kawana's Fuji course. The opening tee shot alone drops 48 yards.

Michael

Wow that is some big time fitness. In addition to walking and carrying 40-50 plus pounds of a bag all week he was side hustling fitness bets.   I don't think people give caddies enough credit for their fitness, although there are some who maybe overweight they obviously are in good cardiovascular shape. Of interest perhaps would be a study pertaining to the overall fitness level of caddies. Blood work and VO2 max etc. I would guess they would be considerably better than the average golfer and some maybe close to matching endurance athletes.

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,

I'm not as impressed.  With the average course being about 5 miles, 60 minutes/5 miles is a 12 minute mile, which is actually pretty slow, even over that distance.  Now if he's gonna do that with with a bag over his shoulder, then that's a whole different thing!

[Michael Wolf]

Kalen,


But keep in mind he's running on the cart paths, which at a place like Kapalua are gonna include some huge detours around the ravines. I bet (and apparently others did) that it's at least 8-9 miles up, down and around the Plantation's paths. So then you're looking at 7:30 miles. Pretty good. One of the reasons Tiger gave for hiring Williams was adding a built in workout partner when on the road.


Jeff - I agree on the fitness. Caddies have an interesting type of stamina. Not necessarily cardio or physical strength but a unique ability to walk at a slightly elevated pace while shouldering weight day after day, week after week. The last pro bag I carried for a full week was 42 pounds. And there tend to be far fewer opportunities to put the damn thing down when you're around the greens than a typical loop for an amateur would provide. But on the positive side, most of the ones staff bags are pretty well balanced. And you are able to figure out some timesavers when you work for the same person every day.


I've always thought that WHERE the elevation changes fall in the course of a round is important in creating the feeling of how difficult a golf course is to walk. Crystal Downs has always felt like a really tough walk to me because there's something discouraging about heading straight down one and then right back up on two. 3 tee is right next to where you've started your round and your legs are already heavy by the time you get there.


I also find it interesting that whether the clubhouse is in view seems to effect my feelings about the long uphill walks over many courses last few holes. Final climbs at places like Ballyneal or Riviera seem a little steeper and discouraging to me when I can see a big clubhouse perched up behind the green, versus a Peachtree or Kawana where the clubhouse is out of view. I have no idea why.


Michael

[Kalen Braley]

Michael,

Years ago we did a GCA myth list, and course length is certainly right up there. 

I just mapped the entire course via Google Earth and it comes in at 6.5 miles if you stay on the cart path all the way around.  If you walk in relative straight lines from tee to green, the number comes in under 6 miles. So for Stevie, 60 minutes/6.5 miles would mean doing 9:15 minute miles, which still seems extremely doable.

For comparison, i've never been anywhere near the specimen he is and still managed to run a half marathon in college in less than 1.5 hours averaging 6:50 miles over twice the distance at 13 miles.

P.S.  The route I used to train for that 1/2 marathon was 4.5 miles, with 250 feet of elevation gain, and I regularly ran it in under 25 minutes. 

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