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Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hit it to the center of the green!
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2021, 06:49:38 PM »
Should the expected length of the approach shot factor into the calculation? That is longer the shot, the more the center of the green is rewarded ?


Ira
I’m having a hard time understanding why people are so caught up with the middle having to be the place to be. I’ve played a green shaped like an hour glass. Isn’t there a green with a bunker in the middle? What is the obsession?


Jon,


Not sure why you picked my post to talk about the obsession. I am lucky if I can hit a green in regulation and seldom keep score. Mine was a question for the architects as to whether they take length of approach shots into question when designing greens/green complexes.


Thanks,


Ira

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Hit it to the center of the green!
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2021, 09:08:23 PM »


Mine was a question for the architects as to whether they take length of approach shots into question when designing greens/green complexes.



Certainly, we do, but everyone is different about what they think is ideal. 


Several of the Tour pro-turned-architects I have met [including Jack Nicklaus and Tom Weiskopf] generally ascribe to same line of thought Jeff B attributes to Jim Colbert:  that a longer approach shot should have a bigger target and usually a bigger green.  They think that is fair for players like them.  They've never had the thought that a long par-4 is really a three-shot hole for most amateurs, so a small green isn't as onerous to the B player as it is to the guys who are expected to hit it in regulation.


Plus, for "average" golfers, you just can't tell what the length of their approach is going to be on a long par-4 or a par-5.  It might be a wedge for their third shot, it might be a full 4-wood, or anything in between.  Which is why I don't overemphasize the "length of approach" in the design of my greens.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hit it to the center of the green!
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2021, 11:09:59 PM »
Would Byron Nelson say aim at middle of Pebble’s greens at the speeds we see today? At old courses like the one where I play, it’s about being below the hole for safety. Middle of green plus a front pin is not a good play. On more modern courses it makes sense.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hit it to the center of the green!
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2021, 11:00:18 AM »
The center of the green should be as safe as the center of the fairway  ;)  Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn’t.  I wouldn’t want to hit to the center of the green on #6 at Riviera nor would I want to hit to the center of the fairway at many of the holes at The Old Course at St. Andrews.  If I did I would likely be in a bunker.  The best golf course design has a degree of uncertainty and unpredictableness (if that is a word)  :)  It makes sense to have “safe” options and bailout options but they should vary and not always be obvious.  That all said, often the best/most interesting hole locations, especially on older courses, are near the edges and these are the design features that often get lost as greens shrink and the surrounding hazards get separated away from the fillpads. 

Jon Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hit it to the center of the green!
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2021, 04:39:58 PM »
Should the expected length of the approach shot factor into the calculation? That is longer the shot, the more the center of the green is rewarded ?


Ira
I’m having a hard time understanding why people are so caught up with the middle having to be the place to be. I’ve played a green shaped like an hour glass. Isn’t there a green with a bunker in the middle? What is the obsession?


Jon,


Not sure why you picked my post to talk about the obsession. I am lucky if I can hit a green in regulation and seldom keep score. Mine was a question for the architects as to whether they take length of approach shots into question when designing greens/green complexes.


Thanks,


Ira
Ira,
No offense intended, you just happened to be the one to post the opinion I had the quickest access to.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hit it to the center of the green!
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2021, 04:58:44 PM »
Should the expected length of the approach shot factor into the calculation? That is longer the shot, the more the center of the green is rewarded ?


Ira
I’m having a hard time understanding why people are so caught up with the middle having to be the place to be. I’ve played a green shaped like an hour glass. Isn’t there a green with a bunker in the middle? What is the obsession?


Jon,


Not sure why you picked my post to talk about the obsession. I am lucky if I can hit a green in regulation and seldom keep score. Mine was a question for the architects as to whether they take length of approach shots into question when designing greens/green complexes.


Thanks,


Ira
Ira,
No offense intended, you just happened to be the one to post the opinion I had the quickest access to.


Jon,


All good. Just didn't want my underlying question to get lost.


Ira

Jon Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hit it to the center of the green!
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2021, 05:09:39 PM »
Ira,
With all that being said, to me, the shorter the hole, the more devilish the green should be.  If you have a short club in your hand, you should be severely punished for missing the green. The longer ones can be a bit more benign but the longer hits in these situations get a big advantage. I wouldn't mind them being built to encourage a running approach as opposed to a high approach but it's hard to defend a green when a guy hitting it 3 plus is having a wedge in his hand when the next guy is hitting a 6 or 5 iron.  I really am a fan of members courses as opposed to designing around the 1 out of 100 golfers that hit it a mile. 

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hit it to the center of the green!
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2021, 09:35:47 PM »
Ira,
With all that being said, to me, the shorter the hole, the more devilish the green should be.  If you have a short club in your hand, you should be severely punished for missing the green. The longer ones can be a bit more benign but the longer hits in these situations get a big advantage. I wouldn't mind them being built to encourage a running approach as opposed to a high approach but it's hard to defend a green when a guy hitting it 3 plus is having a wedge in his hand when the next guy is hitting a 6 or 5 iron.  I really am a fan of members courses as opposed to designing around the 1 out of 100 golfers that hit it a mile.


TD made an excellent point about how hard that is though.


The guys I play with in AZ are almost all over 70 and range from about 11 handicap to high 20s. Only a couple hit it over 200 yards on a consistent basis, so even playing from different/appropriate tees, holes that are short irons for long hitters are often a pretty long shot for us.


Even more weird is the number of driver/mid iron holes for longer hitters that play as three shotters for my group.



Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hit it to the center of the green!
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2021, 01:02:18 AM »
During the weekend of the BUDA this year, the pin on the 9th at Cavendish was at the very front left.  From the middle of the green this left a very tricky putt down a tier, and breaking hard left to right.  I saw at least one opponent putt off the green from closer to the pin that the very centre of the (reasonably large) green.  I'm not sure, to be honest, where the "safe" miss was, if there was one at all.  But then this was 130 yard drop shot, so I was OK with it.


The “safe miss” on the 9th when the pin is front left is in the semi rough on the bank short left of the green.

A 10ft uphill chip is many times easier on that hole than a 15ft downhill putt from the middle of the green.

There are several holes at Cavendish where a very front pin is the toughest on the green, requiring a nervy downhill putt if you’re past the hole. Members often play for a layup and chip. The second hole is a classic example.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 01:14:39 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hit it to the center of the green!
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2021, 02:57:17 AM »
Nothing wrong with laying-up. Players don’t even have to aim for the green with their approach shot. Billy Casper in 1959 at Winged Foot being just one example. To paraphrase Bobby Jones, the space between a players ears is a very important part of the game.
Atb

AChao

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hit it to the center of the green!
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2021, 02:37:14 AM »
My friend used to work with many top PGA Tour pros ... he had one who was less well known and would always aim at the center of the green (unless there was a giant slope there).  He had a comfort zone around 10 feet in size in the middle of the green and he almost always just tried to hit in that circle.  I suppose he made it to the PGA Tour, so ...
Another top amateur I know only aims a partial way from the center of the green to the hole.  He's a +5 or +6 ish, so ... maybe there is something to be said about aiming very conservatively.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hit it to the center of the green!
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2021, 06:11:50 AM »
I'm not on this level, but as opposed to the center of the green I would say below the hole. Wherever the pin is, aim for a shot below the hole slope. Of course for pros (not me) putting spin on the shot to ensure this is an art, especially coming out of the rough (theoretically although doesn't seem to penalize them much).
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hit it to the center of the green!
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2021, 07:46:13 AM »
If I was forced to play to the center of every green, you may as well take my clubs away from me. Who amongst us hasn’t experienced the thrill of taking on a heroic shot, one well above their talent level, and actually pulled it off? I am not willing to let analytics and score take that potential feeling away from me. That doesn’t mean I *never* play safe, but sometimes you just have to go for it. Put the card down, and play some golf.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hit it to the center of the green!
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2021, 12:25:47 PM »
If I was forced to play to the center of every green, you may as well take my clubs away from me. Who amongst us hasn’t experienced the thrill of taking on a heroic shot, one well above their talent level, and actually pulled it off? I am not willing to let analytics and score take that potential feeling away from me. That doesn’t mean I *never* play safe, but sometimes you just have to go for it. Put the card down, and play some golf.


So, you are in the "I didn't drive all this way to lay up" mentality.  Ha!  I get it.


That said, whether the center or an edge of the green, I would say most greens ought to have a safe(er) spot to aim at, for both ams and better players who might be off their game, or playing defensively.  I mean, whether it's the narrow fw of Olympic and Medinah, or island greens, it is just no fun, nor strategic to have to aim somewhere, whereas the safe option is always tempting to many, as is the glory shot.  Most greens need both, and only a few per course, IMHO, should be all or nothing shots. 


And, as ACho suggests, it really is a greyscale, i.e., do I aim at the pin, the safe spot, or try to shade it somewhere in between, increasing both chances of success and penalty?  With different winds, tee shot length, etc. that decision, albeit not dramatic, changes every day.  IIRC correctly, I think Jack used to aim at the center and curve a bit towards the pin earlier in his career, before deciding that the high fade was the most consistent shot.  Other pros complained that he was the only one talented enough to plan his shot to that degree, but of course, more power to him.


And, I do think every course ought to have one or two greens where it really is hit it or else, i.e. penal, but if there are too many of them, they don't stand out, i.e., the TPC island green has some players thinking about it on the first tee, but if there were 17 more, it is not a factor.


And, this reminds me of another thread idea I had....that is, exactly when is the risk of a bold shot worth it?  I would love to hear from both the stats guys and a wide range of golfers.  I have always believed that for average golfers, hitting for the middle (or as far away from trouble as the design allows) is the highest percentage play in almost every case.  I suspect it is for better players, to a lesser degree, i.e., like a football coach rarely going for it on 4th down and 2.


Similarly, would a bold, heroic option on the first hole be as tempting as the same option on 15-19 where a score or match might be decided?  I would guess most folks play the first few holes a bit defensively to avoid bogey, and that risk is more tempting later in the round if you are really thinking about it.  There is the old philosophy that if you make a bogey, then you need to make two birdies to get to -1.


Just some rando thoughts.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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