[Steve Kline]

#12 is a really good long par 3 with a great green.


The hole plays 225 yards with the prevailing wind into and left to right. There is some thought of adding a new back slightly higher up a small hill, making the hole around 240 yards.


The tee shot plays over two ravines with a fairway between the two ravines. The second ravine must be close to 50 feet deep. The farther right you hit it, the farther the carry is over the ravine. If you don't clear the ravine, then it is highly unlikely that you will make a par. Also, it is uphill in the small fairway in front of the green, so it is difficult to run the ball onto the green.


The green has a steep false front as well as giant pimple in the front left center. The back half of the green angles to the right and is steeply uphill. Over is dead, but almost no one ever goes over the green.


If I remember correctly, this was hole was part of the original course. Ross liked it so much that he kept it.

[Steve Kline]

#13 is a reachable par 5. It's around 510-520 from the back tee. It is a hard dog leg left. Prior to the club's previous restoration project, the inside corner of the dog leg was filled with large oaks. Longer players either layed up off the tee or tried to hit a low, rope hook, hoping that it would roll through the trees since grass wouldn't grow well under them. Now, all the trees are gone and the inside corner is filled with bunkers as well as two shorter bunkers on the left and two bunkers through the fairway. This is a definite improvement, but the hole could still be better while being more to what Ross drew. Also, the tee shot plays over the ravine that fronts the 12th green. For most players, playing from the correct tees, the carry is pretty simple.

To the left of the hole, is a large stand of trees that are in a ravine. This is the current "dump" for the maintenance staff. About 100-115 yards from the green is another small dip in the fairway. There is currently a fairway bunker right of the fairway just short of this. In Ross' drawings, this was the only fairway bunker.

Originally, the green only had one bunker to the right. Now, there is also a front left bunker that replace the large mound that flowed into the green which Ross drew. This mound was likely helpful in feeing balls onto the right side of the green while avoiding the bunker. There is ab elephant buried in the green that helps create three sections to the green - front, left and back right. Back right is very hard to access...almost impossible since the five fairway bunkers left are where you need to hit your tee shot to do so. Over the green is completely dead as it drops off steeply.

I don't know if it would work, perhaps making the hole too easy, but I would like to see all the fairway bunkers removed. Then shift the fairway left near the edge of the ravine. Consider, thinning/removing trees so that you could see the line of charm to the green. This would provide a more direct playing line to the green, but it would also cause more tee shots to go left and out of play by taking on the risk for a shorter/better angle. Also, thinning the trees would provide some views of the 4th, 6th, and 7th holes. Remove the front left bunker and restore the large mound feeding into the green. To access left hole locations you would want your drive out to the right. So, the strategy off the tee would change more based on the hole location. Currently, there is only one strategy off the tee - keep it right of the fairway bunkers.

[Bret Lawrence]

#12 is a really good long par 3 with a great green.


The hole plays 225 yards with the prevailing wind into and left to right. There is some thought of adding a new back slightly higher up a small hill, making the hole around 240 yards.


The tee shot plays over two ravines with a fairway between the two ravines. The second ravine must be close to 50 feet deep. The farther right you hit it, the farther the carry is over the ravine. If you don't clear the ravine, then it is highly unlikely that you will make a par. Also, it is uphill in the small fairway in front of the green, so it is difficult to run the ball onto the green.


The green has a steep false front as well as giant pimple in the front left center. The back half of the green angles to the right and is steeply uphill. Over is dead, but almost no one ever goes over the green.


If I remember correctly, this was hole was part of the original course. Ross liked it so much that he kept it.

Steve,


This 12th hole drawing doesn’t indicate any references to the old golf course.  If Ross left the prior hole in place he would have mentioned the hole when giving the superintendent of construction instructions.  He wouldn’t have included instructions for how to build a green for that hole. Whenever Ross built over an old hole he would mention the “present” or “existing” features, so the superintendent knew what to look for when they were in the field.  If Ross does not mention an existing hole it’s very likely he built an original hole, perhaps even on land that wasn’t previously used by the previous architects.


Ross did retain the old 12th hole from Hyde Park, but it was changed to the 15th hole in Ross’ routing.  When we get to the 15th hole, you can see a distinct difference in how Ross words his instructions compared to this 12th hole.  My point is that Ross leaves you so many clues in his 1921 plans that you don’t have to reference a history book from 2009 to know what parts of the old course he used. 


Bret

[Steve Kline]

Thanks Bret.


Perhaps I remembered the club history book incorrectly. Or, perhaps that distinction wasn't made clear enough in the history book. I seem to remember the club's history book said Ross really liked the 12th hole so he kept it. I may have assumed that that had to mean the current 12th hole and not the old 15th hole.

[Steve Kline]

#8 is a 370-ish par 4 with a pretty hard dog leg left. There are trees on the left, mostly in a ravine, that prevent one from seeing the green from the tee. They also protect the 13th tee from a quick hook. Short of the inside corner of the dogleg is a bunker about 150 yards from the tee, which looks original to Ross's plan. Then, at the inside corner of the dogleg there are two more bunkers. These bunkers are not original to Ross and replaced the three bunkers on the outside corner of the dogleg. And, those three bunkers were replaced by two large oaks, once of which died and was removed recently.


With the current bunker arrangement, most good players try to bomb a driver up and/or around the left trees/bunkers. If you blow it right, it does not matter as you still have a wedge to the green from the rough. Granted, you may not be able to get it close, but it is an easy par. Restoring Ross's bunker design off the tee would either force a layup off the tee, likely with a hybrid and leaving an 8 or 9 iron to the green, or it would force one to hit a draw around the corner. No more easy bail out to the right off the tee.


The two bunkers about 50 yards short right of the green are no longer existing and should be restored. The same is true of the bunker back left of the green.


This is a fantastic green. There is a valley in the middle that slightly angles from front left to back right. Holes in the valley make it a definite birdie hole. But, the farther back in the valley the hole is the more your tee shot needs to be left to get it close. The front part of the valley is guard by a knob in the fairway. It is high enough you can't see the bottom of the flag for very front hole locations. The high right side is extremely small and very sloped. Hitting it on and keeping on that ledge is extremely difficult. If the hole is up there and you happen to it right it in the right bunker you will make at least a five if not more. The high left side is larger and you can attack flags there from the fairway. Putting from the back left is probably the fastest putt on the whole course and is very deceptive. Finally, there is a back right wing/shelf behind the valley. This is a great hole location. It takes guts to hit it back there and is difficult to get close to the hole.


This is a really good medium/short par 4, especially if restored to Ross's plans. You feel like should make a birdie every time, but it can jump up and grab you quickly.

Let's jump back to #8.


Here is the 8th hole as of 2016.


From the middle of the tee.



You can just make out one of Ross's original short left bunkers in the image above. 50-75 yards beyond that bunker are two more bunkers that guard the inside corner of the dogleg. Just left of the cart in the distance are two large oak trees that are on the outside corner of the dogleg. The left one was dead and removed earlier this year. Also, the last tree on the left on the inside of the dogleg, which you really can't see but would grab a lot of tee shots, was knocked down by the wind in a thunderstorm last weekend.


Over the bunker, there is a white A-frame at the roof of a house. Three years ago, that was my aim point off the tee. Since then, the trees have grown so much, I have to aim almost at the left of the two oaks that is now gone.


From the 8th fairway about 160-170 yards from the green.



For good players, these two bunkers on the inside corner can easily be carried (even with a 3 wood). Notice in both of these images how the bunker sand is very low and basically can't be seen. The bunkers are too shallow and the sand not flashed up the face high enough.


From short right of the 8th green.



On the left of the photo you can just make out a small hump that guards the front hole locations in the valley of the green. The hump is high enough that you can't see the bottom of the flag on very front hole locations. And, it can deflect shots that are running toward the middle of the green into the valley. In this photo, the hole is in the valley, about 1/3 to 1/2 of the way into the valley.


The following images are from our initial meeting with Tyler and Jim. They wanted to show us what one hole might look like if we restored it to Ross's drawings. My understanding is that Jim created this via LIDAR data of the topography that he fed into the Tiger Woods golf video game. He then put in trees (not exact but close) to replicate the actual. The club actually had most of our trees GPS located. Jim didn't know that, but he could use it to give an even more accurate visual.


From the tee.



Notice how many of the trees on the left were removed to reveal the ravine and the wonderful land Hyde Park has. The fairway was widened left and right. You can go more left, challenging the ravine and opening up the dangerous right plateau hole location. With the outside dogleg bunkers, you would no longer bash driver without caring if you missed right.


From short right of the green with all the bunkers restore, including behind the green.



Looking down on the 8th green.

[Brad Engel]

Steve - Your last post on the 8th hole was the best yet! The combo of drawings, current pictures and virtual renderings was amazing. More of this!!

[Steve Kline]

Well those are the only renderings I have. So, I can't do more of that. As we work with Tyler and we get more renderings I will post them.


But, I can post more pictures going forward.

[Steve Kline]

The 14th hole is a drivable par 4, which from the back plate measures 268 yards. From the very back of the tee it can play close to 280 yards.


From a selfish perspective, it is my favorite hole on the course as it is the site of my only hole in one ever (an albatrace) about 4 weeks after I joined the club. 


The hole has a slight dogleg right around a deep ravine behind the 11th tee and 10th green that then crosses between the 15th tee and green. On the tee it is pretty difficult to see this ravine as it is filled with trees.


The green has a small opening on the front left that you can run a faded tee shot onto the green. If you go left at all of the tee while trying to drive the green it is most likely a lost ball. You can miss the green much farther right (up to 50 yards) than you realize standing on the tee and still be safe. Over the green is no good.


There is currently one fairway bunker. It almost sits above the fairway. It doesn't do much for the hole. For anyone trying to drive the green it is not in play. And, for anyone laying up, you can hit a shot that will end up 80-100 yards from the green and never threaten going in that bunker.


I'm pretty sure the green is not the original green. I think it was moved when Dick Wilson redesigned the 15th hole. The current green has some similar characteristics, but it is different in important ways. First, the unique shape no longer exists. The back of the current green is straight across instead of having the back bunker protrude into the green. Second,  the original green did not have so much of a fronting bunker. Third, the original green opening required a draw and not a fade, forcing the player to challenge the ravine to run the ball on the green.











From the tee.



See the height of the ground by the tree trunk on the left and the height of the ground to the right of the cart path?


During his tour with the grounds committee, Tyler pointed out that that was likely the original height of the tee. It was almost four feet higher than it is currently. It was cut down to push the dirt back and extend the hole when the 15th was redesigned. A higher tee would make the ravine more visible.


The carts in the far right of the image are at the 11th tee. The 10th green is just left and beyond them. All the trees left of those carts and right of the 14th green should be removed to reveal the ravine.


Also, since the green is not original, Tyler mentioned the idea of moving the green farther to the right, closer to the ravine. If the original bunkering was restored, it would force the player to start the ball over the ravine and draw it to run a drive onto the green. I liked the idea.


Looking back to the tee.



From the two pine trees to the lone tree on the photo's right, you can see the height of the original tee. The two pine trees need to be remove. Just left of those is the 13th green. Those two pine trees cast a shadow on the 6th green, over the hill behind the 14th tee, that keep it under frost and/or frozen in the winter.


In the photo, you also get a better sense of the ravine, but you still don't see that is 50-75 feet deep.


Looking to the green from 100-115 yards.



Here you can see how much room there is to the right of the green. If you go for the green miss right as left is dead.


From just short and left of the green.

[Steve Kline]

The 15th is a par 3 that plays about 170 yards over the ravine that extends from behind the 10th green and right of the 14th fairway. This is not the original 15th hole, which was a downhill par 3 of 130 yards known as "Devil's Own."


The 15th is easily the worst hole on the course. It was redesigned by Dick Wilson and looks like he transplanted the green from Coldstream - it's long and narrow with an hour glass shape. It stands out like a sore thumb because every other green at Hyde Park is wide and generally squarish.


From the tee. Thank goodness that logo isn't painted (or whatever it is) on the grass anymore. The old 15th green used to be short of that logo by 15 yards or so. Also, the old 16th tee used to be close to the current 15th green instead of left of the solo tree left of the cart path. All the trees on the right in this photo need to be removed.



From the very front of the tee you get a better view of the ravine. The 10th green is just out of view to the right at the top of the ravine.



From the back of the green looking back toward the tee. This green is steeply pitched from back to front.



This hole really needs to be restored to the drop shot, short par 3 that Ross designed. During our tour with Tyler, he mentioned moving the back tee up the hill and to the right slightly while moving the green to its original location. This would make the hole about 160 yards, which would be a 9 iron or PW for many good players today.

[Brad Engel]

Fascinating to hear that the 15th was originally designed as a drop shot par-3! When I played with you the other year for my Knockout match vs. Criss, when I first saw the 15th it immediately brought to mind the 8th at Muirfield Village. Agree that the green is not consistent in character with the rest of the course.

[Steve Kline]

The 16th hole is about 315 yards from the back tee. It is slightly uphill so the landing area for driver is blind. There's a bunker about 75 yards from the green in the right half of the fairway, but it is basically blind from the tee. A good drive on this hole leaves me a 30-40 yard pitch shot.


Left of the fairway is a row of trees on the edge of a steep drop off. However, these trees can't be removed because at the bottom of that steep drop off is a major four lane road. You can bail as far right as you want, even though there are some trees, and generally make four.





The green is interesting with a plateau on the middle left. The length of the green runs from front left to back right. Ross's drawings indicate the hole was a slight dog leg right that required to hit the left side of the fairway aiming at the steep drop off on the left to have a better angle into the green. Generally, on holes with ravines at Hyde Park, Ross wanted you to play as close to the ravine as possible to get angles to certain hole locations. That feature has basically been lost because the fairways are too narrow and/or trees.


In the photo below, all the trees left of the green have since been removed. Also, the opening to the green is on the front right, but Ross drew it on the front left, further indicating the drive should be played down the left.





Currently, this hole is rather dull. A return to what Ross drew would add some interest to it.











Jason Thurman - you can clearly see in this last drawing that indeed Ross had mounds with sand on both sides of the mound. It seems Ross used this feature at Hyde Park to separate holes with somewhat parallel fairways.

[Steve Kline]

#17 is a par of about 420 yards from the back tee. The prevailing wind is typically into and left to right. The 10th tee is behind the 17th tee. There is some thought to add an extension to the 10th tee to make the 17th hole about 450 yards from the back tees.






The landing zone of the shot is slightly downhill and tends to kick balls a little left to right. For shorter hitters, the second shot is a mid to short iron off a downhill lie. For longer hitters it can be a wedge, but the shot is blind because of a ridge that runs across the fairway about 100 yards from the green. The fairway has gotten too narrow and there are too many trees too close to the fairway.





The tree on the right on top of the ridge is a nightmare. If you hit your drive just slightly right, then you can end up at the bottom of the hill with the tree directly in your line. You can't slice the ball enough to go around it. You can't punch a shot under it because you still have to hit over the ridge. And, you can't go over it because the tree is pretty tall and it is sitting on top of ridge. It's one of the most egregious examples of someone planting with no concept that trees actually grow, getting taller and wider.


The green on this whole is fantastic. It has a y-shaped funnel in the green. The left and right shelf quite tiny. The hogs back at the top-middle of the Y is really large and hard to putt over. The green is steeply pitched back to front and over the green is dead. My favorite hole location is back left.


In Ross's drawings, the opening to the green is much wider that it is currently...maybe 2 to 2.5 times as wide as it is today. This is because the front left bunker runs more diagonally across the green instead of vertically along the side of the green.


All of the fairway bunkers and mounding are missing as well as a bunker behind the green.

[Steve Kline]

The 18th hole is a 420 yard par 4. Everything about is too narrow and constricting.


From middle tee.



The tree immediately off the tee on the left is in play from the back tee for anyone that hits it high or hits a cut. Some of the smaller trees have been removed from the hole, but there are still five large oaks to the right and three large oaks to the left.


You can hardly see the right fairway bunkers, but if you are in them the trees are likely to be in your way. And, if you are in the left fairway bunker or the left 5-10 yards of the fairway the trees are likely in your way. The first right fairway bunker is almost equidistant from the tee as the left fairway bunker, and the distance between is close to 15-17 yards. So, basically you need to hit a laser straight tee shot to have a shot at the green. Definitely not Ross's intent.


When Tyler toured the course with us, we talked about Ross's drawings having fairways that were 50-70 yards wide. Tyler thought an average of 45 yards would be good for Hyde Park. So, on this hole, our pro got out his range finder. We sent Jim, Tyler's associate to the other side of the fairway to see how wide the current fairway was. At it's widest point it was 30 yards. We then told him to walk back until we got to 45 yards. That was basically from tree trunk to tree trunk of the large oaks.


What a difference that would make!


From 200-220 yards out in the fairway.



Notice how the right bunker you can see (there is another right behind it that should have a face high enough to see the sand) is above the level of the fairway. You have to walk up to get into it. Basically, every bunker Ross drew has instructions that say dig down 1.5-2 feet and raise the face 1.5-2 feet. So, he wanted bunkers that were three to four feet deep. The bunker we are looking at is at most 1 foot deep. This is a typical bunker at Hyde Park right now. The bunkers are at the end of their useful life. So, now is the perfect time to get them built the way Ross intended.


Also, at the green, you can see how the right greenside bunker looks to go horizontally in the picture. Like on 17, the bunker should run more vertically and the opening to the green should be another 5-7 yards wider.

Looking back from the green.



In the lower left corner of the image, you can see an arc on the green of a subtle difference in color. That lighter color is the old green. And, the darker color is the green expansion that took place more than a decade ago. You can also see here how if that front right bunker went more vertically along the green there would be significantly more room to run the ball on the green.


In Ross's drawings, all the fairway bunkers are now missing. The green is almost exactly what he drew.

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