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Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2021, 10:16:09 AM »
One set of greens that really stand out for me are the ones at Sunnehanna. The scale and movement on them are wonderful with enough tilt and cross slopes to play very strategically and make putting adventurous if you are in the wrong places. Good variation with some front to back, others built up above grade and some long back to front slopes with variation. They sit beautifully within their surroundings and make a very good course exceptional in my opinion.


A lot of modern greens architecture comes across as trying too hard in my opinion.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2021, 11:38:43 AM by Jim Sherma »

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2021, 10:23:47 AM »
Zac,


As a set, I think that the greens at Old Town are tough to beat.   The unique internal contours and randomness of the rolls present endless challenges and intrigue.   The way that they tie in to the surrounds are another key feature that make the greens great.   


Tommy touched on it earlier in the thread but the green surrounds certainly play a huge part in how the greens themselves play and the strategic interest that they present.   A unique mound or run-off area just off of a green can have a huge influence on the entire strategy on a hole. 


Another key feature that often gets overlooked in lieu of "contour" is the overall pitch of a green.   A green that pitches from front-to-back, like the 1st at Oakmont, demands precision and commands your attention until the ball finally stops trickling away.   


Jimmy

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2021, 10:28:51 AM »
Zac,


I'm surprised to say that I have never really given that question a lot of thought, perhaps falling in the camp of others that they have to fit the entirety of the hole, course, and landscape.  Green design must simultaneously fit the needs of 4 very different golf shots - the approach shot, potential short game recovery shots, first putts, and second putts.  I don't figure I need to give so much attention to third putts, although some here seem to advocate for greens that cause these often, LOL. :D   And, I tend to address those issues in about that order, i.e. approach shot first.


Also, it depends on the type of course to a degree.  But, one of my biggest influences on this is Pete and Alice Dye, who pointed out to me that average golfers like gently rolling greens throughout, and the combo of approach shot and daily pin location most naturally contribute to a different putt every time they play.  They thought pros preferred flatter greens, because they only had a few days to learn them before a tournament each year.


I also have some thoughts based on co-designing with pros.


After talking to Lanny Wadkins, I prefer to limit multi-tier greens to a maximum of 4 (if he said it, I will go with it)


Talking with Jack Nicklaus, he likes a two tier green (narrower at the back) on long downwind par 4 holes, which he said are about the only type hole he would consider running a shot in with less spin, so I usually find the longest downwind par 4 and put that kind of green there to start.  For the longest par 3, 4, and 5, I tend to use smaller greens across the line of play, but without a lot of frontal bunkering (see just below)


Larry Nelson and Notah Begay III preferred medium par 5 holes have at least a narrow opening where they, as shorter hitters, could use their accuracy to reach the green with 3 Wood, negating some who can fly a high iron in and carry hazards.


All of them seemed to like rolling edges and a flatter middle, with the ridges edging in to protect corner pin positions, while aiming at the middle was pretty safe.  Again, there can be a few exceptions, and a few here think those exceptions ought to occur every other hole......


In short, as often as I can, I prefer to:


Set the green to about the size as a minimum, the USGA Slope system has suggested is required for 2/3 of average golfers, and allow one difficult, tucked pin to allow a set up to challenge better golfers, sized at about 10% x 10% width and depth of their approach shot. 


I like to set the green angle with the wind, to help players craft a shot, not defeat them.  If I can't, I tend to go with wider greens.  I tend to put the Sunday pin also aligned with the wind, i.e., downwind and right gets the Sunday pin in the back right of the green, or anywhere right, but hardly ever front left in that wind.  Headwinds tend to get shallower greens than typically downwind approach shots, which are deeper to account for less spin. 


Someone also mentioned variety, which is what I conceptually strive for, and why I am generally against waiting until you are on sited to start figuring out what you want to do.  It sounds odd, but to me, knowing we are all creatures of habit, i.e., Sh*T, shower, shave in the same order every day, I think consciously planning variety by features creates variety more than winging it, because, in reality, you aren't bringing radical new ideas every day you are out in the sun (and if you are, maybe you should hydrate!)


I address green designs on a plan, before construction, striving for 1-3 very small greens, at least 2 very large ones, perhaps one very wide and one very long, and a conscious variety of "normal" size greens bending left and right, with maybe 2-4 strongly across the line of play (after hearing critiques of Nicklaus greens angling hard right for too long).  I know that greens appear to angle more strongly at ground level than in plan view, and any green angled more than 30 degrees basically appears as almost 90 degrees, so on plans, I am biased towards keeping the angles to the line of play low, i.e., 5 to 20 degrees right or left, on the plan, unless it is one of the 2-4 I want across the line of play.


I am not against using templates a few times per course, i.e., Redan, Biriattz, Short, Double Plateau, although I don't force them in there, unless the topo suggests them (or, it's dead flat and the green must be created.)  Not am I against using any other less famous green as a base model if, in my mind, the contours and setting are similar.


Once contouring greens, I strive for some flatter and some more rolling (purposely drawing a grading plan of one green at 1.75% base slope, and others at 2%, 2.5% and maybe even 3% depending on the hole, wind, uphill or downhill approach shot, etc.  But, the point is to not allow the golfer to read the green based on the others, since all have more or less severe contour.


As your first design, you won't have this problem, but I also leave 2 to 3 greens to try something I have never tried before! The discussions here focus so much on the unusual, but I have found that golfers will tolerate "non standard" greens (reverse slope, overly rolling, etc., a few times per round, but over doing any of them causes most to consider the course just goofy golf.


Anyway, I'm sure I take many more basic ideas into designing any particular green set, and might make exceptions on a truly different site.  And, as always, just MMO.  Yours may vary....heck, sometimes even mine varies, LOL.



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2021, 10:45:57 AM »
Weschester CC greens caught my eye during the womens amerature this past weekend!

Cal Seifert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2021, 11:21:28 AM »
It seems many label greens with a lot of contour as “great”. What is a course that has greens with a lot of movement that someone doesn’t consider as having great greens?

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2021, 12:09:33 PM »
It seems many label greens with a lot of contour as “great”. What is a course that has greens with a lot of movement that someone doesn’t consider as having great greens?


I can think of a few. I can also think of a few courses that have a top tier set of greens despite the lack of movement, Portmarnock being one.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2021, 12:16:56 PM »
I recently saw a video where someone described Mackenzie greens as following the natural contour of the surrounding areas with some slopes built into the greens to create pinnable areas. 


I am not sure how accurate that description is but my first impression on my one visit to Augusta National was that many greens looked almost like they simply mowed the existing ground to create them, even today after nearly a century of alterations.    Hanse's public course North of LA (Rustic Canyon) has a similar type of feel. 


I like this type of approach to building greens because they reflect the natural setting, drainage goes in the direction it would likely go anyway, and a tilted green provides interesting strategic decisions from 200 yards out to a 3 foot putt.  Do you ensure you stay below the hole by giving yourself more margin for error or do you take a straighter line that gives you a better chance of being close to the hole but creates the possibility of a difficult putt/chip from above the hole?  The answer varies with every shot.


I am not a huge fan of overly busy greens.  Maxwell greens strike me as being at the very edge of reason, particularly with modern green speeds.   Mackenzie greens make more sense to me. 


It seems to me that some recent designs, have pursued interest in quirk at the expense of designs that seem natural.

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2021, 12:29:22 PM »
Zac, I don't know how to say this exactly--but I've always loved greens with longer, gentler slopes.  What I don't like are pronounced mounds in the middle-part of greens--in my opinion that looks too contrived, too unnatural.  No unnatural "buried elephants," that have no relation to the topography of the rest of course, especially around the green.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2021, 12:32:05 PM »
Zac, I don't know how to say this exactly--but I've always loved greens with longer, gentler slopes.  What I don't like are pronounced mounds in the middle-part of greens--in my opinion that looks too contrived, too unnatural.  No unnatural "buried elephants," that have no relation to the topography of the rest of course, especially around the green.


Jim,


Are you ok with “buried elephants” when the surrounding topography is so violent that building gentle rolling greens is the option that looks unnatural?

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2021, 01:18:03 PM »
Do greens always need to be constructed to be considered great?
What about greens at grade using the natural topography?
For example, I recall playing the 6th at Burnham & Berrow a couple of years ago with Sean and how both of us spotted and thought very highly of a wonderful temporary green location situated in the fairway short of a new green that M&E were constructing. The temp had wonderful natural contours and was located in a terrifically deceiving location when playing an approach shot.
And then there’s the splendid 7th again at B&B. At grade, very slightly higher at the front edge and falling away to the rear with an evil spine running the length of the putting surface on the left hand side.
Atb
« Last Edit: August 09, 2021, 03:32:16 PM by Thomas Dai »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2021, 01:46:52 PM »
Zac:


My approach to CREATING great greens has certainly changed a bit over the years, as I allow my associates to be more involved with the design instead of just doing the shaping.  For everyone who works on the project, creating a green that "makes the cut" would be the ultimate reward.


So, I would divide the greens into three categories, and proceed as follows:


1)  Pick the handful of green sites that you think are the coolest natural spots, and vow to do as little as you can to those in order to make them work.  You'll have your own favorites, but for me, holes 1, 5, 10, 11, 12, and 15 all have that vibe about them.


2)  On the others, if you have a strong idea of what you want to do, set those aside and work with the shapers to make them your own.


3)  If you don't have a strong idea, leave at least three and as many as six greens for your shapers to take the first crack at.  You should give them a general idea [i.e. tilted, fallaway, tiered, etc.] so they don't go too crazy on you, but sometimes, it is better to edit down a wild idea than to try and turn up the volume yourself.




Also, I would advise you to keep the greens on the smaller side, because you can, based on your expected daily volume of play.  Most new courses don't have that luxury.  Trying to keep them small will also keep you from getting too carried away with wild stuff, and it is inevitable you will expand a couple to add a cool hole location -- so don't start with a lot of those!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Greens
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2021, 03:30:33 PM »
I recently saw a video where someone described Mackenzie greens as following the natural contour of the surrounding areas with some slopes built into the greens to create pinnable areas. 


I am not sure how accurate that description is but my first impression on my one visit to Augusta National was that many greens looked almost like they simply mowed the existing ground to create them, even today after nearly a century of alterations.    Hanse's public course North of LA (Rustic Canyon) has a similar type of feel. 


I like this type of approach to building greens because they reflect the natural setting, drainage goes in the direction it would likely go anyway, and a tilted green provides interesting strategic decisions from 200 yards out to a 3 foot putt.  Do you ensure you stay below the hole by giving yourself more margin for error or do you take a straighter line that gives you a better chance of being close to the hole but creates the possibility of a difficult putt/chip from above the hole?  The answer varies with every shot.


I am not a huge fan of overly busy greens.  Maxwell greens strike me as being at the very edge of reason, particularly with modern green speeds.   Mackenzie greens make more sense to me. 


It seems to me that some recent designs, have pursued interest in quirk at the expense of designs that seem natural.


Jason,


As to your first PP, most greens are built, but the best greens and complexes follow the basic land.  When I worked for Killian and Nugent, they were pretty stuck on 3 mounds behind the green, all 2-4 feet higher than the putting surface.  I went to Wisconsin to build that course, and soon found that staking the greens out to those plans didn't work.  The ground was falling left, and the green was +2 above the front elevation, +4 at the back, and with a +4 mound on the back left corner.  I set the stake there, but when it came time to read the elevation, that mound had to be built over 15 feet high.  I field revised the plan to keep only the mounds on the back right and center.  Lesson learned, if the ground falls left, the back mounding ought to do the same and Mac had a lot of nice greens where the backing gradually fell from a mound on the high side to nothing on the back low side.


And we've all heard that putts break to the water, which is usually true because its easier and looks more natural than trying to get water to move uphill.  It's funny but someone here asked if I ever drained a green into a hillside, and I remarked that I did it once.  In my ongoing plan to scan and digitize all my old paper plans, one of the first to drop out of the storage tube was that green.  Fond memories, LOL.


Even within those parameters, there are a million ways to make greens different and different looking.


I am generally in the "let long flowing contours creep in from the edge of the green" camp.  I hadn't thought about it in the same terms as Jim Hoak, but traditionally, gca's have built mounds on all kinds of flattish ground outside the green, which are often claimed to be artificial looking, but the new wave is building smaller mounds inside the green which either don't look natural and/or requiring building mounds far outside the green to make it look natural.  Years ago, on some thread or another, I noted that you either have to build mounds that are obviously for a specific purpose, like some Japanese gardens, or build them the entire length of the hole to make them appear even just somewhat natural, LOL.  Same may be true of internal contours.


Years ago, Langford had a phamplet on designing in the Chicago region.  I can't recall all the details, but he felt the course should look more like midwest prairie than some oceanside site.  He may have even suggested road banks, cattle wallers, and other features as models for bunkering and greens.  Someone also once suggested that we just miniaturize big topo contours from a USGA map on the golf course, including greens, just to make sure the basic contours were in the same basic proportion.


And lastly, one that stuck with me was Tony Ristola (who recently re-appeared here) felt like fw contours should probably not exceed 2X the natural slope to look natural.  I would think that would apply to green complexes.  On a flat ground, any surrounding mounds might be 6-8 to 1.  What looks bad is when you have 3-4 to 1 slopes coming out of flat ground to create the green.


At least, in most cases.  I am sure there are some great exceptions to that rule as there are to any other.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach