[Tom_Doak]

I'm pulling this off a file card in my head, but my recollection is also the original intent was the swale being closely mowed turf, not part of the green. I know the Biarritz swale at Creek Club (#11 I think) was formalized into putting surface later on - but damn if I can remember the evolution of the Biarritz at Piping Rock.
 

Gib:


In the 1926 aerial of Nassau County, none of the Biarritz greens [at Piping Rock, The Creek, Deepdale, and Lido] had the front pad or the swale mowed as putting surface, and that was within a few years of when they were built.  My conclusion was that the front part was not meant to be green.  Yale's always was, though; as far as I know, that's the only one.  And that hole was more the inspiration for the 8th at Old Mac.

[Colin Sheehan]

Every reference to the 9th green at Yale from the original days was quite clear that the putting green was only the back half. And the photographs are quite clear, too.


"The green proper is behind a deep trench in the approach. The approach is about the same as the green itself with water jutting in on the right front...Correct play for this green is to carry to the near edge of the groove or trench and come up on the green with a roll. The disappearance and reappearance of the ball in the groove adds to the interest of play."


Tom,
That description recalls that fantastic bunt driver you hit there back in 2013 that made its way onto the back half.
-Colin

[Gib_Papazian]

Tom,


I believe our research confirmed the front and swale at Yale #9 was always putting surface - and even a purist like Uncle George always maintained if C.B and Raynor were around today, they would approve of converting the run-up area on Biarritz holes to putting surface.


My memory is fuzzy, but was the Biarritz at Fishers also converted? I think that is the most difficult (and exacting) one I have ever played - wind or no wind.


Given the insane distance the young gunners pound the ball - and the elevation of their shots - I wonder whether the Biarritz has been reduced to a charming anachronism. The Doak Biarritz, maybe not, because of the firmness of the green and added complexity of an irregular swale, but the last trip around Piping Rock I played with a kid who pulled out a 6-iron and hit a towering shot that landed and stuck right next to the back pin.


I cut a 3-wood and managed to run it through the swale, but it never even occurred to this kid to play the hole like I did. It reminds me of the difference between my strategy to play the Redan at Shinnecock and Freddie Couples. I try to sneak a 4-iron up the ramp and hope it takes a hard left turn and totters down to the back pin.


Freddie took a 7-iron, hit it so high it grazed off God's undercarriage - and dropped it out of the sky to four feet . . . . . . I think at this point, for the highest levels of play, the Redan needs to be 250 yards and the Biarritz the length of a drivable par-4.


BTW, Harbottle's Redan at Stevenson Ranch was a thing of beauty . . . . people forget his original concept was to create a slightly modernized NGLA. To that extent, I loved it - even with all the obvious artificiality. The Alps was ballsy enough it looked like something Mike Strantz would have built. We had a KP there, many years ago - I've still got our group photo . . . . I wish this DG could go back in time -  if only to have one last beer with Brains Goodale and Huntley.     


       

[Sean_A]

From Sara Mess, of all people:

“Do you think the standard ‘templates’ would be templates if Macdonald/Raynor/Banks wouldn’t have built/identified them?”

I said, “hell no.”

Your response? And justification. Mine coming later.

Kyle

Yes, I do think essential elements of early designs would have been utilised by later archies if CB Mac never lived. I doubt an archie would have built a career around the loud proclamations of these design elements the way CB Mac did.

We essentially have Colt, Dr Mac and CB Mac doing the same thing with the Redan concept around the same time frame. I still highly doubt Dr Mac knew nothing of CB Mac's Redan, the original Redan or Colt's 4th at Swinley when he came up Gibraltar. We must remember that Dr Mac used the Redan idea at Alwoodley when more land became available and he used the Road Hole concept at Weston super Mare. He just wasn't loud about reusing concepts.

I’m pretty certain that Gibraltar predates Swinley.

Adam

It may well do, but they are very close in their time line and word about holes would have spread. It just seems far fetched that Dr Mac knew nothing of Colt's work and the Redan.

Niall, my point was that Dr Mac definitely used templates, but that he didn't talk about it at least in public. His public proclamation was that he didn't use the Redan template. Nope, don't buy what he is selling.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Have a close look at Mackenzie's own descriptions of the holes at ANGC in the photos below ...... note how many times Mackenzie uses words and phrases such as "similar", "type of", "embodies", "some of the features".
atb

[Jim_Kennedy]

In 1933 The Open was played at TOC, and the acclaimed sportswriter George S. Trevor wrote an article about the 17th. It's an interesting look at the hole and how it was viewed at the time, and he eventually got around to mentioning CBM's version of it at NGLA.  In part, Trevor wrote:  "The seventh at the National is a strategic likeness rather than a replica of the Road Hole."

"Strategic Likeness"- a more respectful and apt definition than "Template".   

[Tom_Doak]

Have a close look at Mackenzie's own descriptions of the holes at ANGC in the photos below ...... note how many times Mackenzie uses words and phrases such as "similar", "type of", "embodies", "some of the features".

In the case of Augusta National -- which was at the end of his career -- MacKenzie was working in collaboration with Bobby Jones, and they discussed many holes they both admired, trying to come up with ideas for the new course.  In that instance, it's pretty natural that he would do a write-up that mentioned the holes he and Jones had discussed.


I'm not saying he didn't sometimes borrow ideas from other places -- we all do -- but he certainly didn't believe in following templates to the same degree Macdonald did.

[Sven Nilsen]

"Strategic Likeness"- a more respectful and apt definition than "Template".

Trevor nailed it.  It's about the shots being asked of the players.

[BCrosby]

To echo Sven, great find Jim.



When did the phrase 'template hole' come into vogue? I could be wrong, but I don't recall that MacD used if very often.


Bob

[Bret Lawrence]

Have a close look at Mackenzie's own descriptions of the holes at ANGC in the photos below ...... note how many times Mackenzie uses words and phrases such as "similar", "type of", "embodies", "some of the features".
atb

Mackenzie’s description of the 13th hole above is interesting:


“The hole has many of the best golfing features of the Seventeenth Hole at Cypress Point, California and the ideal hole depicted in C. B. Macdonald’s book.”


Is Mackenzie trying to tell us that 17 at CP and 13 at ANGC are Mackenzie versions of the “Prize Dogleg”?


Which ideal hole is Mackenzie referring to?  I would have thought the ideal hole depicted in Macdonald’s book was his own prize winning design from the Lido contest, but these two holes don’t seem to have any of the features of his famous 18th hole at Lido.


Mackenzie like many of the Golden Age architects used “templates” when they felt like it.  I think we all know that no one used “templates” like Macdonald Raynor and Banks.  I like Vin’s reference to a recipe above.  I think templates get a negative connotation because if you are an artist, the templates should be part of your fundamental understanding of golf course architecture. It’s similar to a world-class chef saying he is going to use a recipe for his next dish that we all thought was original.  The fundamental understanding of what works and doesn’t work shouldn’t need to be written down in a recipe for the chef to succeed. However, the future world-class chefs may still need to use these recipes to better grasp the fundamentals for their future careers.


El Nautico was a course proposed in South America.  Mackenzie was to build his own version of the Lido at El Nautico using his own reproductions. I think if you paid Mackenzie to build templates he would not turn down your offer.  He was creative and original, but he used “templates” whenever he felt it was necessary.

[Gib_Papazian]

I'm going with Professor Kennedy here, "strategic likeness" is a terrific phrase . . . . like "sympathetic restoration."


And Tom, although you are obviously not trying to make exact duplicates of classic holes (neither was C.B.), it seems incredibly rare for anyone (even you) to conjure up a legitimately brilliant strategic arrangement that is completely original.


Somewhere in Bobby Jr.'s book, Golf by Design, I recall him writing (paraphrasing) that if he came up with a hole that *even he* could not ascertain the best way to attack it, then he'd really found something.


But those are pretty rare.


I'll go back to the music analogy. Nothing is created in a vacuum . . . . try as I might - even after 44 years of playing guitar - when I lay down lead tracks, there is always (at least) a faint echo of Jerry Garcia or Neil Young in there. I cannot help it, because that is involuntarily and subconsciously what comes out of my fingers.


If you grow up reading every single word Hunter Thompson and Kurt Vonnegut wrote, well, there is a reason the cadence of my literary twaddle has a crossover similarity to my guitar playing.


That is why - at least to me - your most interesting offerings are the most deceptively beguiling. If I am prone to changing my mind in the middle of my backswing, we're not playing checkers anymore, but 3 dimensional chess. 


   

[Bret Lawrence]

I like the term Jim provided as well.  However, Strategic Likeness could easily be taken out of context here.


Trevor was comparing NGLA’s Road Hole to that of the original.  He wasn’t comparing the Road Hole at Yale to that of the original. Yale’s Road Hole actually has a different strategy from the Road Hole at NGLA, but they both include the same ingredients.  Any hole that can be reversed, flipped or inverted may not result in the same strategic likeness as the hole that inspired it.  The Cape Hole at Fishers Island is another example of a hole with a different strategy than many of its namesakes.


I think we are stuck with the term template now that it has been universally accepted.  I don’t have a problem with the term as I understand it, but it does seem to have a different meaning to different people.  References to music and food are good analogies, because both food and music have so many variables and they are very open to interpretation, much like Macdonald’s model golf holes.

[Mike Nuzzo]

And Tom, although you are obviously not trying to make exact duplicates of classic holes (neither was C.B.), it seems incredibly rare for anyone (even you) to conjure up a legitimately brilliant strategic arrangement that is completely original.

That is why - at least to me - your most interesting offerings are the most deceptively beguiling. If I am prone to changing my mind in the middle of my backswing, we're not playing checkers anymore, but 3 dimensional chess. 

One of my favorite things about Wolf Point is how so many different visitors have called out a different hole as their favorite or liked something special about all of them. When I put everyone’s feedback together there is a ringer scorecard where every single individual hole has its own fan favorite.
Our 5^th hole at Wolf Point is one of my favorites.
I would say it fits your description of a brilliant strategic arrangement, and I would call it completely original.
The most original part of the hole is the green, its surface and its surrounds and how they relate to the terrain.
The 2^nd half of the hole, and green, was entirely found and why this hole, and minimalism in general, produce originality.
Some of the arrangement (bunker, swale location and shots incentivized) of the 5^th were slightly strategically inspired by another famous golf hole.
I don’t think anyone could guess the famous hole, and I don’t know who I’ve told, if anyone, exactly.
 
To the treehouse, and Tom especially:
Is the fifth hole completely original? Or How original is it?


http://www.mnuzzo.com/img/wp/5.0.jpg


http://www.mnuzzo.com/img/wp/5.2.jpg
http://www.mnuzzo.com/img/wp/5.4.jpg
http://www.mnuzzo.com/wolf-point.html


*p.s. can anyone help with the code to post images

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bret,


If that was the case then what would you call a reverse Redan, Bolognese?   

[Gib_Papazian]

Jim,


I cannot recall if they named each hole at Creek Club, but if not, put "Bolognese"in the suggestion box for #8.


But what would a "Reverse Bolognese" look like?

[Bret Lawrence]

Bret,


If that was the case then what would you call a reverse Redan, Bolognese?   

Jim,


I think I would go with Calzone, but only if the Redan is pizza.

[Sven Nilsen]

Any discussion of Mackenzie using "templates" at ANGC should take into account the influence of Bobby Jones in the design of the course.  It was Jones that pushed for many of their holes to be modeled after his favorites from other courses.

[Kyle Harris]

The peregrination of this thread inspires to rephrase the question in a few different ways:

Which templates are the obvious ones? (Eden might be the only consensus here? Maybe Punchbowl)

Which templates are personality driven by the architect selecting them? (Redan comes to mind because of the "Here's a hole that makes a man think" anecdote from CB Macdonald).

Which templates are most derivative (Alps, Road, Long/Hell, Short...)

[Quinn Thompson]

...nothing.

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