Why can’t they putt at Riviera?

[mike_malone]

It’s sensational.

[Terry Lavin]

Tiger is on with Nantz now and he’s talking about the difficulty of the course based on three factors: angles into greens, turf firmness and green speed. One needs a big assist from Mother Nature, but it’s all coming together this week at the Riv.

[David Ober]

It’s sensational.

Hello Mike,


Have you every played crusty, super-fast Poa greens with tough pin placements? (not being snide, truly wondering)

[AChao]

Hi Mike,


One other reason ... and it's not cool to say this, but I think it's relevant ... is the poa.  I grew-up not far from Riv and putted on poa for most of my early life.  Combined with super fast green speeds and some wind, there's some variation to put it nicely.  (Even though it looks great, there seem to be unexplained wiggles.)


I know there was a study saying the pros putting on poa isn't much different from bent, but I'm not sure the all else equal argument is valid.  For example, for some pros, a 3 footer on bent won't be hit as hard as a 3 footer on poa to hold the line.


I've played at Riv as first group off (literally) and played high school matches there in the late afternoon and there's a pretty big difference in time of day also.


A smaller reason in my opinion ... though they've been doing it for a long time ... are the hole locations they use at Riv in recent years.  There's either more slope or there's a higher chance slope will come into play with many putts than before.


An even smaller reason I think is that it sometimes is harder to get perfectly oriented on slope for green reading (when compared to other courses) even with the greens books.  There are a few "mystery spot" places on the course.  Everything goes toward 6 green, but it's hard to calibrate with senses sometimes.


Lastly, I think there's a small mental advantage putting on poa if you normally putt on poa, but I'm guessing there aren't many tour pros who normally putt on poa if they can help it.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Hi Mike,


One other reason ... and it's not cool to say this, but I think it's relevant ... is the poa.  I grew-up not far from Riv and putted on poa for most of my early life.  Combined with super fast green speeds and some wind, there's some variation to put it nicely.  (Even though it looks great, there seem to be unexplained wiggles.)


I know there was a study saying the pros putting on poa isn't much different from bent, but I'm not sure the all else equal argument is valid.  For example, for some pros, a 3 footer on bent won't be hit as hard as a 3 footer on poa to hold the line.


I've played at Riv as first group off (literally) and played high school matches there in the late afternoon and there's a pretty big difference in time of day also.


A smaller reason in my opinion ... though they've been doing it for a long time ... are the hole locations they use at Riv in recent years.  There's either more slope or there's a higher chance slope will come into play with many putts than before.


An even smaller reason I think is that it sometimes is harder to get perfectly oriented on slope for green reading (when compared to other courses) even with the greens books.  There are a few "mystery spot" places on the course.  Everything goes toward 6 green, but it's hard to calibrate with senses sometimes.


Lastly, I think there's a small mental advantage putting on poa if you normally putt on poa, but I'm guessing there aren't many tour pros who normally putt on poa if they can help it.

I think that its very important to note that turfgrass advancements have leapfrogged the last few years. We base a lot of our chemical applications on growing degree days. (GDD) Poa greens aren't the poa greens of 5 years ago. We have multiple ways to control the seedheads to minimize the different growth characteristics.
The kikuya certainly wasnt slow & sticky like they complain about every year.

[Tom_Doak]

Aren't the greens at Pebble Beach also Poa annua?

[AChao]

Hi Tom ... yes, Pebble poa


Hi Anthony ... yes, better through years ...


I'll second David Ober's thought on crunchy poa on fast sloped greens.  I played Cal State Am years ago (at Poppy Hills with poa greens) and hit the par 5 ninth in two for what I thought was a decent eagle try ... wound-up having to lay-up from 10 feet or risk three or four putting.

[mike_malone]

It’s sensational.

Hello Mike,


Have you every played crusty, super-fast Poa greens with tough pin placements? (not being snide, truly wondering)

Yes. I love it.


As for my comment I saw coming up short and bad reads as well not just the obvious effects of speed.


Does firmness effect the roll? Was the subtlety accentuated by speed?


Why were pros so embarrassed?

[mike_malone]

I noticed when we changed from poa to bent that the “resistance “ decreased. Now we are allowing the poa to encroach and it’s back.


I agree that bent is easier.


Beyond the grass I think the subtlety and the tiny slopes there could be a factor.

[JESII]

It looked to me that the balls did a fair amount of wobbling.


Of all the courses on tour, I think Riviera is the one I'd most like to play. Simply looks fantastic from start to finish.

[jeffwarne]

Poa....... and slope.
To boot, they weren't cut on Sunday.


The greens weren't that FAST, they just yielded fast putts-which require a solid strike and a lot of break played.


And subsequently, yielded slow putts going the other way.
Translation:more skill required.
Anyone notice how many long putts were left woefully short?
The players have grooved much shorter strokes due to week in week out sameness and a long slower putt just isn't really something they get that much of.


One day the majority of the world will understand that the PGA Tour etc. is never going to set up a course where a ball won't stop near the hole(and if they do they'll postpone ), so if the greens are a high absolute number, the area near the pin has to be a low % of slope.


Tilt and slope, especially when firm, affect approaches, pitches, chips and putts dramatically-(see 10 at Riviera-and all the other wonderful greens there).
Greens designed for faster speeds have far less of this effect, and are usually soft to accommodate the stress of the absolute day in day out speed expected/required by the flatter design. (endless feedback loop)


Unfortunately, Johnsons are measured by an absolute # on the stimp, rather than the actual challenge of a green design and matching conditioning by too many.


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[mike_malone]

Poa....... and slope.
To boot, they weren't cut on Sunday.


The greens weren't that FAST, they just yielded fast putts-which require a solid strike and a lot of break played.


And subsequently, yielded slow putts going the other way.
Translation:more skill required.
Anyone notice how many long putts were left woefully short?
The players have grooved much shorter strokes due to week in week out sameness and a long slower putt just isn't really something they get that much of.


One day the majority of the world will understand that the PGA Tour etc. is never going to set up a course where a ball won't stop near the hole(and if they do they'll postpone ), so if the greens are a high absolute number, the area near the pin has to be a low % of slope.


Tilt and slope, especially when firm, affect approaches, pitches, chips and putts dramatically-(see 10 at Riviera-and all the other wonderful greens there).
Greens designed for faster speeds have far less of this effect, and are usually soft to accommodate the stress of the absolute day in day out speed expected/required by the flatter design. (endless feedback loop)


Unfortunately, Johnsons are measured by an absolute # on the stimp, rather than the actual challenge of a green design and matching conditioning by too many.


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Sounds like a radio show right there.

[jeffwarne]

Poa....... and slope.
To boot, they weren't cut on Sunday.


The greens weren't that FAST, they just yielded fast putts-which require a solid strike and a lot of break played.


And subsequently, yielded slow putts going the other way.
Translation:more skill required.
Anyone notice how many long putts were left woefully short?
The players have grooved much shorter strokes due to week in week out sameness and a long slower putt just isn't really something they get that much of.


One day the majority of the world will understand that the PGA Tour etc. is never going to set up a course where a ball won't stop near the hole(and if they do they'll postpone ), so if the greens are a high absolute number, the area near the pin has to be a low % of slope.


Tilt and slope, especially when firm, affect approaches, pitches, chips and putts dramatically-(see 10 at Riviera-and all the other wonderful greens there).
Greens designed for faster speeds have far less of this effect, and are usually soft to accommodate the stress of the absolute day in day out speed expected/required by the flatter design. (endless feedback loop)


Unfortunately, Johnsons are measured by an absolute # on the stimp, rather than the actual challenge of a green design and matching conditioning by too many.


[size=78%].[/size]

Sounds like a radio show right there.

I've certainly beaten that horse on air before..
Yesterday I stepped all over my co-host(David Armitage who is fantastic) after he waxed poetically about how great the 10th hole was because of all the options and decisions it required.
I told him it had jumped the shark due to equipment and that there was NO choice, and that not one player had laid up(and if they had it was simply a mishit), and furthermore that the silly scrub and trees just left of the green were goofy compensations for a hole that technology had passed by .
I compared it to the same options that 17 at TPC presented.


Crickets...

[mike_malone]

Good on ya Jeff. 


  Tony Finau apparently had a new putting idea and it worked very well. Possibly the rest just depended on their regular routine when a new awareness was needed.

[JESII]

Jeff, #10 has jumped the shark?


It simply demands good planning and good shots. The degree of bad luck is more or less equivalent to a miss in either planning or execution in my opinion.


As mentioned, I've not been there so this is just from TV viewing.


I think an easy 4 can be had for someone willing to settle just for that. They all hit driver because they'd rather have the screwy result on the first shot than the second. And also because it's 300 yards so they have to at least give three a chance.


On Saturday, DJ hit a perfect tee shot (with a 7 wood?) about 10 yards from the front left edge. Pin was in the very back. His pitch shot was ultra aggressive (flew about 30 feet into the green) and trickled into that small back bunker? I can't blame the green. Keegan Bradley's result was more wind than anything, but even still, he was then chipping straight back uphill into the wind.

[JESII]

That was maybe better suited on Mayday's "Crappy Trees" thread...copying to there.

[archie_struthers]

 


Poa is normal for us here in the mid-atlantic and it looked pretty healthy at Riviera. I've never been there but it looks like a ton of fun and they certainly had to think strategy as to where a good leave was. TEP  would have been proud of the maintenance meld, maybe he is secretly consulting with Tommy N and they got to the committee.  Miss their imput 


Just a lot of fun stuff. Maybe someone out there can tell us how large the average green is at Riviera.
[size=78%] [/size]

[Kalen Braley]

Poa is normal for us here in the mid-atlantic and it looked pretty healthy at Riviera. I've never been there but it looks like a ton of fun and they certainly had to think strategy as to where a good leave was. TEP  would have been proud of the maintenance meld, maybe he is secretly consulting with Tommy N and they got to the committee.  Miss their imput 


Just a lot of fun stuff. Maybe someone out there can tell us how large the average green is at Riviera.

I'd be willing to do green measurements for Riv, kind of a fun activity, and any excuse to use Google earth is a good one! 


I'll have it complete later today...

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Every year on Sunday the last 4 groups have difficulty putting.  Most reasons have already been indicated. 
Because.......


1.  Poa grows in the afternoon
2.  To "protect par" they use unusually odd or difficult sloped hole locations on Sunday.
3.  Most Southern California coastal courses have a major slope toward the ocean, or in the case of Riviera down the canyon to the 6th green.  A member for 15 years, I left in 2002, and still today I watch on TV and can predict where the player will miss through a misread.  They don't account enough for the canyon break to the ocean.
4.  16th green, 2,100 sq. ft., 10th green, 2,800 sq. ft.

[Rob Marshall]

Poa is normal for us here in the mid-atlantic and it looked pretty healthy at Riviera. I've never been there but it looks like a ton of fun and they certainly had to think strategy as to where a good leave was. TEP  would have been proud of the maintenance meld, maybe he is secretly consulting with Tommy N and they got to the committee.  Miss their imput 


Just a lot of fun stuff. Maybe someone out there can tell us how large the average green is at Riviera.

As someone who has putted on Poa for 46 years, it's not that bad...........

[Kalen Braley]

Just a lot of fun stuff. Maybe someone out there can tell us how large the average green is at Riviera.

Hey Archie,

Here is what I came up with for Riviera, once again using the Google Earth Tool.  The green edges were a bit more difficult to decipher than Pebble, but I figure these are accurate to +/- 60-80 sq.feet:

- Largest green - 15 at over 7600 sq feet.
- Smallest green - 16 at just under 2800 sq. feet
- 7 total greens at 6000 sq feet or larger
- Biggest surprise - 18 has one of the smallest greens on the course.  And it plays 460+ yards as well as 70 feet uphill.  And these guys were still hitting wedges into it..

#     SQ Foot
1    6600
2    3225
3    5680
4    4894
5    6112
6    6519 - 6952 total, subtracted out area bunker occupies
7    3732
8    6778
9    5760
10    3111
11    5071
12    5963
13    6580
14    5899
15    7630
16    2772
17    6472
18    3724
Avg.   5362

[archie_struthers]

 


thanks again, we'll have you running a numbers game yet