It’s the grounds around the Postage Stamp that make the hole.

[mike_malone]

As I watch the Women at Troon I see the gentle dunes surrounding the Postage Stamp as caressing the tiny green. The hole is just set in a charming spot.

[Bill Gayne]

I agree. I hit to the left and it was a very difficult place to be and I ended up across the green in the coffin bunker. It's a short hole that requires precision.

[Lou_Duran]

Mike,


I thought that the hole fits the terrain exceptionally well.  I went in to play a difficult workingman's championship course, one not known for its natural beauty or charm.  Like with Portmarnock, I was very pleasantly surprised.  On my list for a return visit.

[Thomas Dai]

Seems to have changed a bit.
An old painting by Rountree vrs a recent photo.
atb

[Lou_Duran]

David,


I suspect that the artist took similar liberties with scale as your obsession with how far strong players can hit the modern ball and how much some well-heeled golfers will spend to play the game.  The mind can play funny tricks- perhaps that is what the artist's eye prompted him to draw.  I doubt that Fazio got to the course in the interim.

[Kalen Braley]

It reminds me a little bit of Pac Dunes 14 with all the trouble left and right/short right.

If the wind is right seems like a good play is to land short and run it on like I did at Pac Dunes for my lone birdie of the round.

[Thomas Dai]

Worth a read - https://thefriedegg.com/eclectic-18-uk-royal-troon/
Atb

[mike_malone]

Good job by Jaeger as usual but my point was the look of the hole is framed well by its surroundings. I need to get there.

[Niall C]

or another way of putting it is that it's a short par 3 and it's the severity of the hazards that make it.


David


Re Harry Rountree's rendition of the hole, he may well have taken liberties as Lou suggests but also bear in mind that the hole has been tweaked along the way. The bunker on the left of the green and at the bottom of the dune was added by Braid for the 1923 Open. He may also have added a others as well at that time. The front of the green has also been extended if memory serves.


Also in terms of the dune on the left, over the period there has been a fair bit of slippage down into the bunker which may account for it appearing lower now than in the Rountree painting.


Niall

[Lou_Duran]

Nial,


If you think about it, ask Bryan about the picture.  I suspect that he has seen some early photographs.  I can't imagine that the mound would have collapsed as fully covered with grasses and vegetation as it is.  If anything, I would expect it to continue to build up by the blown sand captured in the grasses against it.  Maybe the artist was inspired by the Rubenesque Period.  I like the Now picture much better, though I am a fan of Rubens.

[David_Tepper]

Comparing an old painting to a current photo is fairly pointless, as there is no way of knowing how accurate a representation the painting is. I seriously doubt Rountree's painting was done to scale. If anyone can produce a photo of the hole taken around the time Rountree painted it, I would love to see it.   

[Thomas Dai]

Doesn't seem recent. Make of it and other photos and paintings what you wish.
atb

[Niall C]

Nial,


If you think about it, ask Bryan about the picture.  I suspect that he has seen some early photographs.  I can't imagine that the mound would have collapsed as fully covered with grasses and vegetation as it is.  If anything, I would expect it to continue to build up by the blown sand captured in the grasses against it.  Maybe the artist was inspired by the Rubenesque Period.  I like the Now picture much better, though I am a fan of Rubens.

Lou


IIRC it was BBM who told me about the slippage. Makes sense when you think about it. Braids bunker probably undermined the side of the dune.


Niall

[Lou_Duran]

Thanks Nial.  Bryan would know.  I need to learn about how dunes are formed.


Good find David.  I personally prefer the current presentation.

[David_Tepper]

https://www.thelinksdiary.com/post/postagestamp?utm_campaign=180954f5-7b9a-4f7c-9ede-55bf491c7baa&utm_source=so&utm_medium=mail&cid=9a85640b-20fc-4afc-aa3f-c72ad5aa046b

[Kevin Pallier]

Does anyone know when they added the new green to the left of the dune?

[Niall C]

Kevin

Interesting question. I'll do a little digging. I'm pretty sure that it post-dates the Postage Stamp green as IIRC the old routing went from what is now the 8th tee to the 9th green.

As for the winter green, I actually think it makes a fun and challenging hole. The sort of hole if it was on a Brora or Golspie or some place like that it would be well loved. Unfortunately it's not so when you do play it you tend resent it because you're not playing to the postage stamp green.

Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

Seems to have changed a bit.
An old painting by Rountree vrs a recent photo.
atb

I'd be pretty confident that's just artistic licence.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Your question/point was - It is the grounds around the hole that make the golf hole.  I agree but isn’t that the case on many/most great holes?  The debate we end up having is have far around the hole do we consider “the grounds” or “the setting”, call it what you want?  Is it the grounds around the 15th hole at Cypress Point that make the golf hole 

Sometimes we don’t like to take the grounds around the hole too far because then some don’t consider them part of the hole 😊

[Thomas Dai]

We see lots of photos of the Postage Stamp from the tee etc.
What's it like if you overshoot the green and go over the back?
And of the bunkers which is usually the 'best miss'?
atb

[Bryan Izatt]

According to the article link that David T posted it appears that James Braid created or built up the dune in 1923 prior to the Open. 

The first iteration of the hole was the work of Willie Fernie, then in preparation for Troon’s first Open Championship, the course was refined by James Braid. The 8th got shorter, bunkers were added, as was a large mound beside the green, in short it became a little devil.

If that is the case then the setting of the hole is at least partly or mostly man-made.

Below is a picture of the hole from the 1923 Open from the Mackenzie and Ebert Royal Troon Brochure which would have been from shortly after Braid made his changes.  It looks very little like the conical dune of the painting.  Certainly, no dune would naturally exist or last in such a conical form.  From the picture from 1923 it doesn't appear that the dune as built was conical.

[mike_malone]

Mike,
Your question/point was - It is the grounds around the hole that make the golf hole.  I agree but isn’t that the case on many/most great holes?  The debate we end up having is have far around the hole do we consider “the grounds” or “the setting”, call it what you want?  Is it the grounds around the 15th hole at Cypress Point that make the golf hole 

Sometimes we don’t like to take the grounds around the hole too far because then some don’t consider them part of the hole 😊

Mark,


That’s an artistic interpretation. My artist daughter tries to educate me about composition. So it goes as far as the eye wants.
That’s why the tree removal at a Rolling Green is so impressive. You can see how Flynn fit the hole to the land without trees breaking up the composition.
For this hole my eye goes to the water.

[Niall C]

According to the article link that David T posted it appears that James Braid created or built up the dune in 1923 prior to the Open. 

The first iteration of the hole was the work of Willie Fernie, then in preparation for Troon’s first Open Championship, the course was refined by James Braid. The 8th got shorter, bunkers were added, as was a large mound beside the green, in short it became a little devil.

If that is the case then the setting of the hole is at least partly or mostly man-made.

Below is a picture of the hole from the 1923 Open from the Mackenzie and Ebert Royal Troon Brochure which would have been from shortly after Braid made his changes.  It looks very little like the conical dune of the painting.  Certainly, no dune would naturally exist or last in such a conical form.  From the picture from 1923 it doesn't appear that the dune as built was conical.

Bryan,

I've had an interesting exchange with Colin Cotter off line regarding this hole. Colin's family have been members at Troon forever and he has caddied there for years. More to the point, there is probably no one who has done more research into the evolution of both courses.

Colin agrees with me that the winter green post dates the postage stamp green but thinks that it possibly dates back to before WWII. He agrees with me that the Braid changes were "restricted" to putting in the left hand bunker. IIRC articles at the time suggest the reason was to stop players deliberately aiming for the left side of the green knowing that if they do hit it too far left the ball will run off the bank and on to the green. So a quite significant change on how the hole played even if there wasn't huge amounts of earth shifted. And the bank/dune was/is definitely natural.

In terms of yardage, I haven't checked to see how the yardage changed over time but I wonder if any changes could be accounted for simply by the way the hole was measured ? At one period of time (pre-WWI and just after) the distance was sometimes measured from the back of the tee to the back of the green. Once you start measuring to the middle you lose probably 10/15 yards.

One further comment, in that old photo the left hand side bunker(s) are above the green whereas now the bunker is most definitely below the green surface.

Niall

[John Emerson]

Doesn't seem recent. Make of it and other photos and paintings what you wish.
atb

T,
Is there a date with this pic?

[Thomas Dai]

T,
Is there a date with this pic?

Afraid no date John, found it on the web. With the wording and font it's maybe from a book or a magazine article.
atb