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Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2020, 04:59:59 AM »
8)


Tim, maybe I'm being a curmudgeon but I really don't care about the color of the guy who built the course. It's time we forgot about all this designation as ........ Americans. It's way past that time for me personally.


Let's consider not thinking of someone as a black or green or yellow person. It's surely needed in our country right about now! It's been ill advised for decades just like the Black Caucus or Black Student Union at colleges. It's the nexus of the issue in many ways.
If you watch the stories of Bill & Renee Powell on the Clearview website you might learn something about the struggle to be included as an American. I wasn't aware of it or whether there were any other Black architects and I have learned something.
We can't be inclusive as Americans unless we know who we may be excluding. Or you can choose to stay ignorant. :-\
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2020, 08:23:54 AM »
 :-\


Tim, given that you don't know me where I grew up or my life experiences this probably isn't the right forum to call someone ignorant, for the second time.  I'll give you a pass but perhaps you might just try to learn yourself!


My point remains, until we stop categorizing people by the color of their skin, and not the quality of their character we haven't seen the light!

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2020, 08:27:15 AM »
 8)


Anthony with all due respect, my postulate would be that by pointing out a physical characteristic as defining is the most limiting position of all.


I'm sure Tim meant no disrespect by the query, it's just misplaced IMHO
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 08:30:24 AM by archie_struthers »

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2020, 05:34:13 PM »
8)


Anthony with all due respect, my postulate would be that by pointing out a physical characteristic as defining is the most limiting position of all.


I'm sure Tim meant no disrespect by the query, it's just misplaced IMHO
My query was purely educational and it was. If you don't want to know or care about the subject you can ignore it. I certainly don't need you to defend me.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2020, 07:26:49 PM »
 ;)


Some people would appreciate civility in discourse.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2020, 12:49:29 PM »
William Powell (Cleveland, OH) represents a great story of a black American who fostered golf for the benefit of the community. ASGCA is presnting our Ross Award to Rene Powell this year, yet we all feel the award is for the entire Powell Family:

https://asgca.org/renee-powell-to-receive-asgca-donald-ross-award/


— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Gib_Papazian

Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2020, 09:26:56 AM »
Forrest,


Interesting question. The closest I can recall was this young AA cat (whose name I cannot recall) on the ground during the Harding Park remodel a few years ago. Neal Meagher and I went out a couple times and he was definitely in charge, but I do not believe he was the architect of record. I know there are AA General Contractors who also do "small A" architecture design, because one built my house (we are on project #3).


But now that I think about it, I've never met an actual AA Architect of any stripe - buildings or landscape included. When I was in school, the USC Alpha Rho Chi fraternity was across the street and I never saw an AA guy or gal even walk in the door.


It might be like the reason there are almost no girls who play trumpet . . . . not their thing. But after decades of First Tee scholarships and introduction to our game, it does seem strange. 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 09:35:14 PM by Gib Papazian »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2020, 10:07:06 AM »
Do not know who that would have been. Great hearing from you Gib!
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2020, 03:05:44 PM »
8)


Tim, maybe I'm being a curmudgeon but I really don't care about the color of the guy who built the course. It's time we forgot about all this designation as ........ Americans. It's way past that time for me personally.


Let's consider not thinking of someone as a black or green or yellow person. It's surely needed in our country right about now! It's been ill advised for decades just like the Black Caucus or Black Student Union at colleges. It's the nexus of the issue in many ways.
That is a noble thought. The reality, the majority has defined racial and ethnic subcategories for centuries and only has a problem with them when they are used in efforts of advancement or self determination.
I applaud your hope for a world with the lack of ethnic designation.
That said, likely since the beginning of time, one group has excluded another on the basis of ethnicity or religion.


In Golf, it is impossible to overlook these exclusionary clauses or covenants associated with the development of golf courses and clubs.
There has been progress and some places have moved beyond these exclusions but centuries of segregation take a minute to fix.
If GCA members took a personal inventory of their clubs or courses and noted how many times they have played with a PEER of another ethnicity, the results would would be "informative".
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2020, 03:57:19 PM »
This thread reminded me of a discussion I had with Tom Macwood once -- I've forgotten the particulars, but it centred on a little known Italian who was employed by a famous ODG to blow things up/create or reshape features using dynamite. Tom was an expert on gca history, but my point was that it was Tom M's 'ancestors' who *wrote* that history, not mine. We'll likely never know how many smart, talented, hard-working Asian-Americans or Italian-Americans or Afro-Americans etc played important roles in creating the country's great golf courses in the early days -- they've been forgotten by history because they were never *included* in that history to begin with. My father and uncles didn't 'design' Toronto's City Hall -- along with hundreds of others, they merely 'built' it.


Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2020, 05:50:25 PM »
.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 07:57:11 AM by Bill Shamleffer »
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Gib_Papazian

Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2020, 06:58:51 PM »
Bill,


You used the word "were" quite a few times. Also, "used to be" . . . . and "for decades" . . . . . . but the truth is, everybody was well on the way to getting over it before the lunatics took control of the asylum. I've mentored enough kids (special needs, "of color" or whatever) to know that kind of huffing and puffing only widens the divide.   

Now, just out of curiosity, when you say: "We are faced with our ORIGINAL SIN," whose *we* Kemosabe?

And what are "our" sins? Exactly? Please articulate them, so I my prostrate myself before your moral superiority. America is turning into Orwell's worst nightmare.

You can make the argument the most important golfer - no wait - most important and beloved athlete in the modern era is 1/2 black and 1/2 Thai. Okay maybe Muhammed Ali, Michael Jordan or Willie Mays, but all of them are black (sorta) last time I looked.

You think any fans give a shit about the race of who painted the basketball court or strung the ropes in the boxing ring? Because for the hoi polloi, that is nearly as irrelevant as who figured out how to push the dirt around and grow some grass. We're the only fanboy goons nerdy enough to so give it so much as a thought. 

Of all the grievances (real or imagined) to redress, are we going to focus on something as arcane and irrelevant as "black architects?" I think my good friend Forrest was just posing a curiosity question, not looking for backing on some bizarre, guilt-ridden je'accuse!

Dammit, the number of Armenian golf architects is DEFINITELY in single figures and I demand the government - in the interest of equality and racial injustice - force Merion to hire me.

My first affirmative, righteous move will be - in the interest of fairness and equality for all golfers - fill in the Quarry!

And since NGLA has been recently identified by the execrable N.Y. Post as unfair to the proletariat - I demand the Windmill be converted into a welfare office and the statue of C.B. Macdonald replaced with Timmonds the caddy.


P.S. Actually, to be honest, they really ought to have a statue of the Great Timmonds - he's still my favorite caddy of all time. Go look up an old G.D. article by Michael M. Thomas "My Friend Timmonds."


P.S.S. Members of clubs like Sunnyside in the Central Valley used to refer to us as "Big Nose, Fresno Indians." It took decades for Armenians to even be allowed in the door. No big deal, we run 1/2 the best tracks in the valley these days.
 




 


 


 
 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 03:31:02 AM by Gib Papazian »

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2020, 08:18:47 PM »
Gib, coincidentally there is a monument at the Montebello Golf Course in Montebello Park that commemorates the Armenian genocide. Since you have spent time in LA you may be familiar with it.
The purpose of my post was educational with no agenda. I wondered if there were courses designed and built by Black men in the US and outside the US because I wasn't aware of any besides Tiger's. I learned something from some of the responses and that is what GCA does best is educate and inform. If you choose not to care about the subject then don't read it.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Gib_Papazian

Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2020, 10:09:01 PM »
Tim,

Oh relax, I was just having a chuckle at Bill Whazhisname's hyperbolic vehemence. Personally, I am more angry and offended there are not more "persons of color" designing our Olympic Luge courses - and don't get me started on the lack of black horses on our Dressage teams.

All bullshit aside, my friend Seymour Rose - the great Jamaican golf professional - just passed away on April 5th. For those who knew Seymour, what a man - putting aside he was the best player in the country for several decades.

It is my understanding he designed and built the Runaway Bay GC in Runaway Bay - at the time Seymour was Head Pro, I'd wander into his office for apres-round refreshments and stories of golf and life in Jamaica.

For those unfamiliar, the course is about halfway between Montego and Ocho Rios I played more than a dozen times. I'm not sure if he did any other designs, but he thoroughly understood golf architecture. 

He also mentored plenty of the local caddies into the golf business - helping quietly bring clubs and balls onto the island nation, because the obnoxious import duties imposed by the criminals in Kingston made it unaffordable.

Seymour helped me sneak two sets of wedges for a couple caddies I befriended - Kyle and Lassus as I recall. We ended up playing matches every day (Kyle out of my bag) against a crazy-ass Brit (with Lassus) who actually drank more Red Stripe (with a jigger of tomato juice) and rum than me.

No small feat. They invited my girlfriend and I to a "locals only" all-night beach party - full rip reggae and the best ganja in the universe. Definitely a highlight of the trip. 

Seymour had his work cut out for him though; when I asked Kyle to write down his name and address for forwarding, I quickly realized he was totally illiterate - and had never gone to school.

Pretty tough sledding for a bulletproof 2 handicap - but one who could not read anything but numbers.     

You wanna help somebody? Nevermind all these taser grabbing violent felons - open your checkbook to righteous people who were never even offered an education.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 02:57:12 AM by Gib Papazian »

Gib_Papazian

Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2020, 03:14:47 PM »
Forrest,


I asked Neal, the answer is Les Claytor (still at PGA Design I'm told), so he's definitely an architect. Berkeley guy who interned with Uncle Bob Graves. My memory is getting worse than Joe Biden's.




Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2020, 03:30:39 PM »

My point remains, until we stop categorizing people by the color of their skin, and not the quality of their character we haven't seen the light!


very well said

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2020, 09:46:55 AM »
I have not met Les Claytor, but will look forward to it.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2020, 06:26:50 PM »
Les was dedicated to get into the profession.  At ASGCA meeting in SF in 1994, he came out to caddy hoping to meet members. That he got stuck with me and a few other "no names" had to be one of his early big career disappointments. :P   I was never in a position to hire him, but would have liked to.  Glad he made his mark. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Gib_Papazian

Re: Courses designed by Black men?
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2020, 01:24:19 AM »
Jeff,


I got the impression his hands were tied at Harding - because there were a few features (mandated it seemed) on the construction docs he was not terribly happy - all on the front side. But for the most part, the detail work is terrific. He'd be the right guy to go back in and fix the Fleming Nine. It has to be a little frustrating, working for a faceless machine like PGA Design. The fact his name is not listed as architect of record seemed strange to me.




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