[John Mayhugh]

Really good tour, Bryan. I'll be sharing it with some non-GCA friends.
I wonder how much the width at 17 has narrowed over the years. You really need to be in the fairway to have a go at the green - the most thrilling spot on the course. It's not as if the hole is defenseless with a wider fairway, though.

[Tim Gallant]

Really good tour, Bryan. I'll be sharing it with some non-GCA friends.
I wonder how much the width at 17 has narrowed over the years. You really need to be in the fairway to have a go at the green - the most thrilling spot on the course. It's not as if the hole is defenseless with a wider fairway, though.

John,


Looking at Google Earth, the fairway width (roughly 22 yards wide) looks about the same as it was in 1999 (the last aerial they have). I'll see if I can dig out any historical aerials, as I am sure the width has been reduced over the years. But it does look the same now as it did 20 years ago.

[Tim Gallant]

1947 - looks like it is certainly wider than it plays now, with the fairway edging to the dunes on either side of the valley:\





Credit: Britain from Above.

[Bruce Katona]

Thank you Bryan!  Thoroughly enjoyable tour!

[Tim Gallant]

Echoing others - thanks for the tour Bryan! Always wonderful to see photos of such a great course.

[Lou_Duran]

Tim,


You can glean that much from the aerial?




The Prestwick I've played is nothing like the one Bryan memorializes.  It was rather angry that day.  It didn't seem that there was enough room for what is asks the golfer to do.  I'd like to return some day.  I know that I can clear the ridge on 5; finding the green is another matter.     

[Bryan Izatt]

You're welcome to all.  Reviewing the photos always brings back fond memories.


Tim,

Below is a blow up of the 1947 aerial that you posted you can click through for a larger version).  There are several points of reference that still exist in the Google Earth satellite photos from today.  The large crater above the fairway is still there today.  The wishbone maintenance paths crossing the fairway are still partially visible today. 

What's clear is that today they maintain a straight line fairway cut on both sides.  The 1947 fairway cut looks much more curvy with a lobe of fairway on the top right of the crater and the bottom near the left path of the wishbone.  The fairway where the black vertical line in the print crosses the fairway is also clearly wider than today.  It also looks a good bit wider than the 15th hole directly below it.  The 15th must have been pretty much the same width as today given the topography of the dunes around that hole.  So, I'd agree with you that the Alps used to be wider, maybe up to 30 yards in width in its widest parts.


Lou,

As I recall that day it was angry weather - heavy rain and winds.  Prestwick has teeth in those kind of conditions.

[Tim Gallant]

Bryan,


Spot on, if you look at the end of the fairway on the side closest to the 15th, the part right before the fairway runs out looks roughly the same length as today, but if you start to make your way back to the tee, you can see that they mowed around the mound and the fairway widens out from there (right where the right part of the wishbone path goes). I think you're right that in sections, it was likely wider than today.


Lou,


I had to laugh, when I saw your post, all I could think of was 'THE SEA WAS ANGRY THAT DAY MY FRIENDS!' The Marine Biologist is still maybe my favourite Seinfeld episode. Comedic genius!


Back on track, I've never thought it was overly narrow (with the exception of 1 & 15), but will cast my mind back and have a think. You're probably right that there could be some more room given to make the strategic options more viable.

[Sean_A]

I think 6 and 7 could be wider. There isn't much to be done about 1 and 15, but both are very short 4s so there doesn't need to be a premium on width.

Ciao

[Tim Gallant]

I think 6 and 7 could be wider. There isn't much to be done about 1 and 15, but both are very short 4s so there doesn't need to be a premium on width.

Ciao

On looking back, it appears 1 is 44 yards wide at its widest, and would leave roughly 125 into the green, so I'd have to agree with you, that given its length, that is ok. It tightens considerably from inside 125, so if one were to hit driver over 225, you really are taking the wall into play, or are aiming for the rough.


On 6, it looks like it is fairly wide (35-45 yards) for the first part of the tee. Once you get to about 250 yards off the tee, it narrows to 20 yards!

[Thomas Dai]

Is this a 'cop' like earthworks bank, a la Hoylake, running along the 18th hole?
If so, are there any more of them on the course?

atb

[Bryan Izatt]

Dai,


It didn't strike me as a 'cop'.  It is perfectly straight and therefore looks man-made.  I can see it in aerial photos from 1947 and 1927 so it's been around for a long time.  There are no other features like it on the course. It looks to me like either the south end of the 1st and 18th were raised when the course was built or the area to the west of the 18th was lowered.  It seems like that would have involved a lot of earth moving either way but I can't see any other explanation.  There's no way, imho, that it is a natural feature of the local topography.


   

[Sean_A]

I don't think the Welsh Wizard is suggesting the long mound is natural. The cops is man made, but it must have served a purpose. Often times these type of cops cut across the fairway rather than run parallel to fairway.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Man made for sure, hence my comparison to Hoylake and wondering as to any others at Prestwick. I also wonder where the ‘other sides’ of the Prestwick feature would have been? Similar features of various sizes are often found in the U.K. in upland or moorland areas where animal grazing, especially sheep, took place. Basically big pens sometimes of a higher wall style, sometimes with a wooden picket type fence along the top and with an occasional gap for a gate. Braid located the 5th green at Welshpool entirely within a modestly sized one.
Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

Surely the cop was just a field or land boundary dating to before the course? Don’t think any earthworks were undertaken.

[Niall C]

The cop or grass dyke is a field boundary that pre-dates the course. It's shown on the old OS maps and the field in question was the area of about half way down the first and second half of the 18th. It's just another example of the really ODG using whatever features that were there, be they natural or otherwise. Often it was stone walls eg. the 12th and behind the 4th green but that got removed with the changes in the 1920's IIRC.

Golfers today tend to think of the walls at North Berwick as being unique but they were in fact quite common until the golden age guys when the fashion became to remove anything that didn't look natural. The walls at NB remained because they were boundary walls marking different ownerships in the case of the wall behind the 3rd, and also retained livestock in the case of the wall at the pit. By the time the course was in single ownership and free of livestock, the walls had attained a degree of reference that no moderniser would dare touch unless the wanted to risk the wrath of the "Tim Gallants" of the day.

The stone walls that crossed Turnberry went after WWI I believe but they were all internal so there was no boundary issues and livestock issues there. The Eden course had various walls and Colt partially took them down for line of sight and then buried the remaining parts at the entrance to one of the greens (can't remember which). You can also see the remains of the turf dyke at Carnoustie I think.

Niall

[Niall C]

Ally beat me to it

Niall

[Tim Gallant]

The cop or grass dyke is a field boundary that pre-dates the course. It's shown on the old OS maps and the field in question was the area of about half way down the first and second half of the 18th. It's just another example of the really ODG using whatever features that were there, be they natural or otherwise. Often it was stone walls eg. the 12th and behind the 4th green but that got removed with the changes in the 1920's IIRC.

Golfers today tend to think of the walls at North Berwick as being unique but they were in fact quite common until the golden age guys when the fashion became to remove anything that didn't look natural. The walls at NB remained because they were boundary walls marking different ownerships in the case of the wall behind the 3rd, and also retained livestock in the case of the wall at the pit. By the time the course was in single ownership and free of livestock, the walls had attained a degree of reference that no moderniser would dare touch unless the wanted to risk the wrath of the "Tim Gallants" of the day.

The stone walls that crossed Turnberry went after WWI I believe but they were all internal so there was no boundary issues and livestock issues there. The Eden course had various walls and Colt partially took them down for line of sight and then buried the remaining parts at the entrance to one of the greens (can't remember which). You can also see the remains of the turf dyke at Carnoustie I think.

Niall

I start one thread, and I get labelled for life! 
[size=78%] [/size]

[Sean_A]

Bryan

Thanks for the tour. I really enjoyed the cloudy pix because it'd easier for me to see the contours.

Ciao

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