[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

No, I don't think so. I've only played Pasatiempo twice, but I can remember distinctly how easily (for a poor golfer like myself) one par and one bogey were achieved. As John Kirk mentioned, it's a driver-mid iron hole for the average length player. And not unlike many difficult par 4's, two well struck shots get you in the ballpark. Like most Mackenzie courses, a deft touch gets down in two after that.
 
Ben,
 
Really, driver, mid-iron, easy par 4.
 
Then why is the hole the # 1 handicap hole ?
 
A few facts to help clarify matters.
 
Distance
 
# 11 392 yards      # 16 387 yards
 
Elevation differential between tee and green.
 
# 11 + 106 feet         # 16  - 3 feet.
 
Fairway lie in the DZ
 
# 11  uphill slope      # 16 Flat

Where the 11th separates itself is the visual difficulty of the second shot, and the slope of the green surface. These two features account for up to a half shot difference in difficulty in my mind.
 
Then you would agree that the 11th is the more difficult hole.

I can think of one other Mackenzie hole that is under 400 yds and is as difficult, the 13th at Palmetto Golf Club. Like the 13th at Pasa, it is severely uphill. Also like Pasa, the left side of the hole is restricted. Where it separates itself from Pasa is the small cross bunker on the left side of the fairway which is in the most prime area from which to approach. Any shot up the left side of the fairway will have to stop short of that bunker. The fairway itself is cambered left-to-right, which causes all but the most well struck drives to trundle towards the right side of the fairway, forcing approaches from a poorer angle. This fairway camber also increases approach difficulty by causing an awkward uphill stance with the ball below your feet. The green is situated on the top of the ridge that also houses the 3rd green, 4th tee, and 14th tee. It is a pushup green with sharp fall-offs on all sides. It is also guarded front right by one of the most fearsome bunkers on the golf courses. It is a hit-the-green-or-else approach. The only saving grace in this competition of difficulty is that the Palmetto green is much easier on which to putt.
 
I haven't been fortunate enough to play Palmetto, but will include it in my Carolinag agenda.

[David_Tepper]

Speaking of Pasatiempo, it should be noted that 12-year old Lucy Li and Kathleen Scavo, a then high school senior, shot a better-ball 65 this past March in the qualifying for the USGA Women's 4-Ball Championship. Impressive to say the least.

http://www.ncga.org/2015/03/26/u-s-womens-amateur-four-ball-qualifying/

[Tom_Doak]

"Under 400 yards" must get an asterisk when the hole is also 90 feet uphill from the back tee to the green.  Yes, 90 feet, it was the first thing I checked when they gave me the topo map!

[Rich Goodale]

Should a golfer hit his 2nd or 3rd into the left green side bunker on # 11, I can see huge numbers should he blade that bunker shot

Pat

Only Morons blade bunker shots.  Should we design our courses to pamper them?

Rich

[John Kirk]

Pat,

If we're defining "hardest par 4" under 400 yards by average score, I think the 14th hole at Bandon Trails (325 yards, severely downhill) would yield a higher average score for the vast majority of players.  Perhaps the top 3-5% of players would score lower on the 14th, but most mid-handicappers probably don't even finish the hole.

These days I'm about a 3 handicap.  I would estimate my average score at Pasatiempo #11 would be 4.8 - 5.0, whereas I think I would be hard pressed to better 5.0 on Bandon Trails #14.  It's so easy to make one and two shot mistakes there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Kirk,
 
When I was at Bandon last year, we got rained out and I never got to play Bandon Trails, so I can't comment on the hole.
 
The problem I have with your "average" score at # 11 at Pasatiempo is that it doesn't seem to account for any penalty strokes on your drive and more so on your second shot.
 
# 11 is a hole that easily extracts doubles, triples and higher, yet, your theoretical average score is 5.0 and below.
 
I would think that my average score would be 5+ as I doubt that I'll birdie it more than once in 100 and I know that I'll take doubles, triples and more.
 
Just because the golfer gets on the green doesn't mean that a two putt is guaranteed.
 
I saw guys 3 and 4 putting from not that far away.
 
And, if you get in the left green side bunkers, or above the hole in the rough, you're faced with an extremely difficult shot.
 
I'd put the average score on that hole between 5.0 and 6.0, at the very least.
 
 

[Will Lozier]

The problem I have with your "average" score at # 11 at Pasatiempo is that it doesn't seem to account for any penalty strokes on your drive and more so on your second shot.
 
# 11 is a hole that easily extracts doubles, triples and higher, yet, your theoretical average score is 5.0 and below.

I would bet that John's "average" score is, in fact, his average score - I doubt he is taking mulligans on the 11th hole and factoring them in with creative math.   Average score would generally include all penalties from holes 1-18 would it not?

[cary lichtenstein]

#11 at Pasatiempo is certainly one of the hardest (and definitely harder than #16), but I'd say #10 at Butler National is THE hardest under 400 that I've ever played.

I agree

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will,

You need to reread John's post.

His average score is in fact, NOT his average score, but rather his "estimated" average score.

Having played with John, and having played Pasatiempo more than a few times, I'm confident in my position.

Have you played # 11 at Pasatiempo ?

The problem I have with your "average" score at # 11 at Pasatiempo is that it doesn't seem to account for any penalty strokes on your drive and more so on your second shot.
 
# 11 is a hole that easily extracts doubles, triples and higher, yet, your theoretical average score is 5.0 and below.

I would bet that John's "average" score is, in fact, his average score - I doubt he is taking mulligans on the 11th hole and factoring them in with creative math.   Average score would generally include all penalties from holes 1-18 would it not?

[John Kirk]

Dangit!

I had a nice response written and I lost it.  It started sort of like this...

Hi Will,

Both Patrick and I are making estimates based on a lifetime of experience, although I did spend five or six years tracking hole-by-hole scores on a few courses I played regularly.  Nevertheless, Patrick's estimates are surely "on par" with my own.

 

I did a little research, and you're probably right about Pasatiempo #11 being easier than Bandon Trails #14.  Granted, this is for top amateur golfers , but the course statistics for the 2013 Pacific Northwest Golf Association Men's Amateur had #14 as the 17th hardest hole at 4.25 (average score about 80).

http://thepnga.org/championship-home/championship-history/2013-mens-amateur-results/

Here's the recent statistics from the 2015 USGA four-ball qualifier at Pasatiempo.  Granted, these are best ball stats, but #11 is ranked the 4th hardest hole by this criteria.  I played in this - my partner got the par on #11.

http://www.ghintpp.com/ncga/TPPOnlineScoring/CourseStats.aspx?id=1721

Here's another interesting set of stats.  The 2014 U.S. Open qualifying yielded an average score of 76.2, with holes #11 and #16 ranking 1 and 2 in difficulty.

http://www.ghintpp.com/ncga/TPPOnlineScoring/CourseStats.aspx?id=1465

To summarize, you're probably right, Patrick.  I think it's fair to suggest that, at least for better players, Pasatiempo #11 (and #16) are more difficult than Bandon Trails #14.  That does not account for my individual performance, and the fact that the 14th has me spooked.  On Pasatiempo #11, I am quite confident driving up the hill, then play timidly from there, and usually make 5.

[Will Lozier]

Will,

You need to reread John's post.

His average score is in fact, NOT his average score, but rather his "estimated" average score.

Having played with John, and having played Pasatiempo more than a few times, I'm confident in my position.

Have you played # 11 at Pasatiempo ?

Fair enough per John's "scorekeeping"...I figured calling himself a 3 meant he was...a 3? But you've informed me and he's copped to!


In answer to your last question, stay up to date with YOUR thread...answered a page ago.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John,
 
I share your thoughts on the drive and approach.
 
I gave serious consideration to driving up the left side of the fairway in order to produce a better angle of attack into the hole, especially when I was hitting my drives with a slight fade, but, then I said, why risk a big number for an enhanced angle of attack when I knew that I'd be hitting a long club into the green.
 
I think your other point is one that all golfers can relate to.
Certain holes fit your eye and your game and certain holes just seem to be your nemesis.
 
# 16, because the green and surrounds are blind off the tee, doesn't threaten me from the tee the way # 11 does.
 
And, the approach shot at # 16 requires far less club.
 
I wish that I had been able to play Bandon Trails, but, a huge storm was coming in so we had to bail before we could play it.
 
What's interesting about how each golfer perceives a hole is that two golfers  can have completely opposite opinions, with each one being valid.
 
ie.  the 5th and 14th holes at Pine Valley.
 
For me, # 14 is a killer.
 
I expect to bogey # 5 with an occassional par.
# 14 has seen me "tin cup" it more than a few times.
Yet others I talk to tell me that # 5 is exponentially more difficult than # 14.
 
Each golfer has his likes and dislikes.
Each golfer has holes that he plays with ease while the same hole eats other golfers for lunch.
 
Maybe that's one of the things that makes it such a great game.

[John Kirk]

2.5 handicap as of today.  Taking a break from golf currently.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

2.5 handicap as of today.  Taking a break from golf currently.

John,
 
Don't take a break.
 
Work on getting it to 0.0.
 
That's a real milestone.

 

[Bill_McBride]

Look at the comparison of 11 to 16 another way:


(I fully agree it's more difficult to birdie or par 11, it's a harder hole)


For a mid handicapper, which I sadly am for the past decade, I think it's easier to play 11 for a 5 than 16.   


On 11 you play your second shot well below the green on a much safer angle than directly at the green, then pitch straight up the axis of the green.  Keep the ball below the hole!


On 16 you have to play across the bottom ravine up toward the three tier green.  Once you're there, it's difficult to be on the proper tier.  All sorts of terrible things can happen from either side or definitely from above the hole. 


If I had to make a bogey 5 I'd rather take my chances on 11. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Look at the comparison of 11 to 16 another way:


(I fully agree it's more difficult to birdie or par 11, it's a harder hole)


For a mid handicapper, which I sadly am for the past decade, I think it's easier to play 11 for a 5 than 16.   


On 11 you play your second shot well below the green on a much safer angle than directly at the green, then pitch straight up the axis of the green.  Keep the ball below the hole!

A 200 yard drive, up that steep fairway, probably equates to a 220 drive for the mediocre to poor golfer.
 
That leaves them with about a 150 yard shot, uphill, over the ravine, to about 30 yards short of the green.
 
And, that second shot is visually and physically intimidating to the mediocre to poor golfer.
 
And, that little 30 yarder, off of a steep uphill lie to a narrow, well guarded, severely pitched green is no bargain for the mediocre to poor golfer.
 
Once on the green, putting is a challenge.

On 16 you have to play across the bottom ravine up toward the three tier green.  Once you're there, it's difficult to be on the proper tier.  All sorts of terrible things can happen from either side or definitely from above the hole.
 
Bill,
 
The carry from the end of the fairway to the front of the green on # 16 is only
58 yards.
 
Given that golfers lack the precision to dial in their intended LZ, if they played conservatively, they could leave themselves with an 80 or 100 yard carry.
 
And remember, you can play the ball from the bottom of the gully on # 16.
It's just rough.
No such luxury exists on that deep ravine on # 11.


If I had to make a bogey 5 I'd rather take my chances on 11.
 
That may be, but, your chances of making a double, triple or higher are greater on # 11.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm with Bill on this one as well.  I think its easier to play 11 conservative than it is #16.
 
When I played it I hit a so-so drive, and then followed it up by aiming my 2nd shot left of the green just to make sure I wasn't going to flirt with that baranca in any way.  My 2nd shot ended up ~ 10 yards short of the green and it was an easy chip with a simple 2 putt for 5.
 
As for 16, yes the hole plays shorter but the reality is , you must face that difficult green.  When I played it, I hit the green in regulation, but ended up 4 putting for double bogey because I was above the hole on the wrong level in 2.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kalen,

So, you had a birdie putt on # 16 and no shot at a birdie on # 11.

I think that confirms my premise



I'm with Bill on this one as well.  I think its easier to play 11 conservative than it is #16.
 
When I played it I hit a so-so drive, and then followed it up by aiming my 2nd shot left of the green just to make sure I wasn't going to flirt with that baranca in any way.  My 2nd shot ended up ~ 10 yards short of the green and it was an easy chip with a simple 2 putt for 5.
 
As for 16, yes the hole plays shorter but the reality is , you must face that difficult green.  When I played it, I hit the green in regulation, but ended up 4 putting for double bogey because I was above the hole on the wrong level in 2.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm with Bill on this one as well.  I think its easier to play 11 conservative than it is #16.
 
When I played it I hit a so-so drive, and then followed it up by aiming my 2nd shot left of the green just to make sure I wasn't going to flirt with that baranca in any way.  My 2nd shot ended up ~ 10 yards short of the green and it was an easy chip with a simple 2 putt for 5.
 
As for 16, yes the hole plays shorter but the reality is , you must face that difficult green.  When I played it, I hit the green in regulation, but ended up 4 putting for double bogey because I was above the hole on the wrong level in 2.

I don't understand the concept of an easy chip on 11.

[Matt_Cohn]

it was an easy chip with a simple 2 putt for 5.

I don't understand the concept of an easy chip on 11.

Any chip is easy if your goal is to not get up-and-down. 

[Kalen Braley]

I'm with Bill on this one as well.  I think its easier to play 11 conservative than it is #16.
 
When I played it I hit a so-so drive, and then followed it up by aiming my 2nd shot left of the green just to make sure I wasn't going to flirt with that baranca in any way.  My 2nd shot ended up ~ 10 yards short of the green and it was an easy chip with a simple 2 putt for 5.
 
As for 16, yes the hole plays shorter but the reality is , you must face that difficult green.  When I played it, I hit the green in regulation, but ended up 4 putting for double bogey because I was above the hole on the wrong level in 2.

I don't understand the concept of an easy chip on 11.

John,

I left my approach shot short of the green as noted. The front of the green is wide open, there was no rough to get hung up in between where i was and the green,  and the chip was uphill.  Even for a high capper like me it was fairly simple...with the goal of taking 6 out of the equation.  Chip it close make the par or worse case chip it to 20 feet for an easy two putt.

P.S.  Understanding the mindest of a high capper is important here.  On holes where big numbers are easy to end up with, like #11, a 5 is a very acceptable score!

[John Kavanaugh]

5 on 11 is a fine score for any golfer. The pin was top left for me so all I remember is one of the steepest false fronts that I have ever seen. I had the pleasure of hitting my chip into the physically impossible back bunker which of course led to me laying four even further away than I was in two. After raking the bunker and going back down the fairway to hit my 5th I asked my buddy to remain on the green and pick up my ball. Nice thing about being a low cap sometimes is the most you can post is a double.

[Kalen Braley]

5 on 11 is a fine score for any golfer. The pin was top left for me so all I remember is one of the steepest false fronts that I have ever seen. I had the pleasure of hitting my chip into the physically impossible back bunker which of course led to me laying four even further away than I was in two. After raking the bunker and going back down the fairway to hit my 5th I asked my buddy to remain on the green and pick up my ball. Nice thing about being a low cap sometimes is the most you can post is a double.

John,

I completely understand that.  Thankfully I knew before hand missing the green hole high or long was very dead.  As I recall I intentionally didn't take more club on my 2nd shot knowing that missing short somewhere, with the possibility of running on to the front of the green if i nailed it, was a good outcome, especially for a hack like me! 

P.S.  I don't think 11 resembles any Jim Engh holes I've played.  While Pasa 11 is a bit bowled beyond the bunkers its nowhere near as large as the ones Jim uses.

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