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Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Elimination of collars?
« on: September 05, 2018, 10:57:49 PM »
I'm hearing about a concept in green construction/maintenance that basically eliminates collars around greens, going from the green to a belt cut of a foot or two in width with grass a 1/2" or so high, and then to normal fairway or rough.  What I have known as "froghair" would be gone.  This is said to be a throw-back to Golden Age course look.
Is this something you're seeing more of?  What are the advantages?  Disadvantages?  Do you like the look?

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Elimination of collars?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2018, 03:30:22 AM »
Jim,
If you mean the width of the 'fringe' between the putting surface and any other cut then mowers moving from quite narrow hand operated machines to wider ride-on machines has been a major contributor to fringe width expanding.....and, on older courses, another result has been green shrinkage as the space between the putting surface and any adjacent bunkers/water has expanded.
Time and manpower and modern machine availability and money vrs 'a look' that was the norm for a significant in times gone by.
I'm not sure that the effects of changes in maintenance equipment and techniques (and budgets vrs expense) is as appreciated as it should be in causing gradual or creeping changes in course layouts over the years/decades.
atb


Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Elimination of collars?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2018, 05:36:17 AM »
I'm hearing about a concept in green construction/maintenance that basically eliminates collars around greens, going from the green to a belt cut of a foot or two in width with grass a 1/2" or so high, and then to normal fairway or rough.  What I have known as "froghair" would be gone.  This is said to be a throw-back to Golden Age course look.
Is this something you're seeing more of?  What are the advantages?  Disadvantages?  Do you like the look?



Arcadia Bluffs has been like this since its origin, 15+ years ago. Philly Cricket and Caves Valley have also adapted this concept. In many cases it leaves a green being mowed at .125' or lower up against 2"= of rough. I can see some people having a problem with that.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Elimination of collars?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2018, 10:38:33 AM »
Elimination of collars is definitely a theme.
Just look at all the "Nike players" on tour, especially Tiger and Rory. They dont have collars (on their shirts) anymore either...;-)

What's next...denim...?... ;D
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 11:20:40 AM by Ian Mackenzie »

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Elimination of collars?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2018, 01:25:37 PM »

No Collar at the moment on my course and it doesn't seem to impact the playing characteristics.




Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Elimination of collars?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2018, 02:34:49 PM »
You don't need a collar if there is a lot of short grass around the majority of the greens.

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Elimination of collars?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2018, 10:35:48 AM »
A few courses with no or lessened collars have been mentioned.  Any others?
I can't precisely describe what I am referring to, but it certainly looks more "old school" when I see it.  Less cluttered, simpler.  What are the advantages with the 2 or 3 cuts around greens that modern design has seemed to favor--at least till recently?

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Elimination of collars?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2018, 11:50:12 AM »
A couple problems that I see:


Turning walk mowers around in the rough would lead to some light triangular scalping of the rough.  The reel remains spinning while the operator tips the machine back and turns it, but to get the reel high enough to clear the rough would require the operator to push the handle down far enough to get the reel high enough, which would be about knee height.  This is hard on your back after awhile so guys would just stop doing it and clipping the rough.  Actually, after awhile it might look kinda cool as it would be a quasi fringe in a way.  Or you could use turning boards, but that's only doable at places with a budget like Tony's.


Assuming a bent to blue transition, you would start to see bent creeping out into the rough, or if the greens edge creeps inward, tall bentgrass along the surround.  Bentgrass at rough height is an awful grass.


I assume that several areas would have roll offs that would almost always result in a "collared" lie, where the ball is resting on the greens height grass but has nothing but rough behind it.  Pretty much one of the harder shots in golf.


All that being said, it is simpler, and I don't particularly like those courses with like 4 different collar cuts surrounding the green, as that is excessive.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Elimination of collars?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2018, 12:34:38 PM »

Tom,


cut around the green would need to be fairway height to avoid the problems you describe.


Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Elimination of collars?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2018, 08:51:50 AM »

Tom,


cut around the green would need to be fairway height to avoid the problems you describe.


Isn't that not a collar!!!
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Elimination of collars?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2018, 01:22:57 PM »

Tom,


cut around the green would need to be fairway height to avoid the problems you describe.





Isn't that not a collar!!!




No Alan,


the collar or apron is a cut between the green height and fairway.

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Elimination of collars?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2018, 08:29:58 AM »
Jon

I knew what you meant but guess my attempt at a joke failed......

A collar is better defined as a transitional height between green and rough. Hence fairway height turf would suffice in being a collar and my feeble attempt in humor (definition from Beards book)



Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Elimination of collars?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2018, 11:36:22 AM »
I don't disagree.


By definition a "collar" or "froghair" is putting green, anyway.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

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