Bent, Blue Grass, and Bermuda: does it make a difference in design?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Eighty percent of my golf is on bent grass: fairways and greens. I understand the grass better. I grew up on blue grass fairways and liked it because they bounced more. When I go south it takes a while for me to adjust to Bermuda. I was wondering if the grass that will be used makes a difference in designing a course. For instance, I do notice a difference in the grass around bunkers. It seems that on Bermuda, fairway bunkers are mowed to fairway length. Up north many of the fairway bunkers have longish grass surrounding them. Is that because of grasses available?
Are there differences when architects design courses on different grasses?

 

[mike_beene]

This is probably a micro view of the question, but it is my understanding if we ever convert from bent greens to bermuda that we will have to take slope out of several greens.

[Anthony_Nysse]

This is probably a micro view of the question, but it is my understanding if we ever convert from bent greens to bermuda that we will have to take slope out of several greens.

Typically more of a function that the greens will be firmer most of the year and winter time speeds will be very fast.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Eighty percent of my golf is on bent grass: fairways and greens. I understand the grass better. I grew up on blue grass fairways and liked it because they bounced more. When I go south it takes a while for me to adjust to Bermuda. I was wondering if the grass that will be used makes a difference in designing a course. For instance, I do notice a difference in the grass around bunkers. It seems that on Bermuda, fairway bunkers are mowed to fairway length. Up north many of the fairway bunkers have longish grass surrounding them. Is that because of grasses available?
Are there differences when architects design courses on different grasses?

I know I asked this question many years ago, after helping build Friars Head and playing Chechessee Creek. I think that there are more textures and varieties allowing for a more natural look with cool season turf, especially when if comes to the use of fescue or a rough edge bunker style.
 Bermuda rough vs fwys do not have much color difference, though mown at different heights. Bermuda rough at 1.5" is plenty in many cases, while many courses with cool season turf maintain their rough at 2" or more.

[Matt MacIver]

We’ve converted from bent to Bermuda and open Friday.  I’ve heard there may be less slope but i don’t think they regraded every spot on every green, so we’ll see if they left some of the +3% grades...I think I hope so. 

[jeffwarne]

For all those courses in the south that were once bermuda-then went to bent....


And now back to bermuda...


Do you subtract slope each time?


Always amazed how progress tends to move us backwards....

[Tom_Doak]

For all those courses in the south that were once bermuda-then went to bent....


And now back to bermuda...


Do you subtract slope each time?


Always amazed how progress tends to move us backwards....

Many have done so.  Changing grass is sometimes a sneaky way to change the design at the same time.


Certainly, as Anthony suggests, working in cool season climates gives you a broader palette of grass choices and potential textures - although Pete Dye used to get a lot out of warm-season grasses that nobody else wanted to try.


Certain grasses make it easier to mow more of the playing surface at fairway height, because they don't raise the budget so much.  Bermuda and fescue are both good for that; bentgrass is not.


However, pretty much regardless of turf selection, I tend to design my holes with at least part of the approach open for running shots.  It's not so much that I think low-handicappers will change their trajectory, as because there are many seniors and women and higher-handicappers who only have the one option for their approach.

[A.G._Crockett]

This is probably a micro view of the question, but it is my understanding if we ever convert from bent greens to bermuda that we will have to take slope out of several greens.

Typically more of a function that the greens will be firmer most of the year and winter time speeds will be very fast.

Anthony,I'd add to your reasons the fact that on bermuda greens there will be down-grain putts that become unmanageable to some pin positions that were reasonable, if difficult, on bent grass.

[A.G._Crockett]

I've seen it done both ways multiple times in the South when clubs convert from bent to bermuda; some re-contour their greens, some don't.  More importantly perhaps, some SHOULD but don't.
There is a very private high end club in North Georgia that converted a number of years ago, and keeps their greens running at around 12 for daily member play, of which there probably aren't 40 a day.  They didn't re-contour; their pin sheet went from four positions to three, and some of those are damn near impossible.
I've gone back and forth in my mind about this.  It's great to have pristine greens in July and August, and it's great (I suppose?) to be able to have really fast green speeds during the high traffic portion of the year.  But I think a lot of classic greens become not much fun at those speeds; play Pinehurst #2 or Sedgefield and tell me that the greens are a lot of fun.  I thought about this at Southern Pines during a tournament round last week; they are still bent and were probably running around 9 or 10.  If the Elks Club ever successfully sells (deals keep falling thru) it's likely there would be a conversion to bermuda involved, and some of those wonderful greens would either have to re-contoured or would lose some great pin positions.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I've seen it done both ways multiple times in the South when clubs convert from bent to bermuda; some re-contour their greens, some don't.  More importantly perhaps, some SHOULD but don't.
There is a very private high end club in North Georgia that converted a number of years ago, and keeps their greens running at around 12 for daily member play, of which there probably aren't 40 a day.  They didn't re-contour; their pin sheet went from four positions to three, and some of those are damn near impossible.
I've gone back and forth in my mind about this.  It's great to have pristine greens in July and August, and it's great (I suppose?) to be able to have really fast green speeds during the high traffic portion of the year.  But I think a lot of classic greens become not much fun at those speeds; play Pinehurst #2 or Sedgefield and tell me that the greens are a lot of fun. I thought about this at Southern Pines during a tournament round last week; they are still bent and were probably running around 9 or 10.  If the Elks Club ever successfully sells (deals keep falling thru) it's likely there would be a conversion to bermuda involved, and some of those wonderful greens would either have to re-contoured or would lose some great pin positions.

I played Sedgefield both before and after they switched from Bent to Champion. I play it half a dozen times a year. When they made the switch it was almost as if I was putting on different greens. When they have the Wyndham there they use some pretty benign pin positions, hence the low scoring. They could set it up where putting would be much more difficult.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I know nothing of bermuda, but I can speak to cool season grasses.  If you have a bent green or bent/poa green, or even a pure poa green that used to be bent, bluegrass fairways become a problem when you get to the transitions between fairway and green.  Whether you want to call those approaches, collars, aprons, surrounds, etc, blue fairway to bent green never works that well.  Bluegrass is a much stickier grass so playing bump and runs that land in the blue portion and release onto the bent green are inconsistent.  Some places with bluegrass fairways solve this problem by making the approach all bent, then it changes to bluegrass a certain distance away from the start of the green.  This is better, but then the problem then becomes that the bluegrass generally plays firmer under the same regime, as often times the bentgrass approach is laid over native soil, which plays softer than both the bluegrass fairway over native soil, and the green which is often laid over a foot of sand and drain tiles (USGA spec).  So you get firm/soft/firm.  Or you get firm/sticky/firm with blue laid up to the start of the green.  In an ideal world you could do bluegrass fairways up to a bentgrass approach which is fully sand capped with drain tiles.  This however would be quite pricey, especially if the short grass green surrounds are large.  The wild card would be wall to wall fescue, which has succeeded at Bandon (although the greens have to be approaching 100% poa annua at this point), but failed at Ballyneal and Chambers due to greens performance.