[Cliff Hamm]

I believe Jason Thurman’s thread was getting at this point.


What courses have you played where the primary attribute is the terrain? These are courses that may have bunkers and/or water, but the primary obstacle is the topography.   Where if there were no other hazards the challenge and interest would remain.


 The two that come immediately to me are George Wright and even more so Greywalls.

[JMEvensky]

Peoria Country Club--hilliest golf course I've seen.

[David_Tepper]

The Lake at Olympic is certainly on notable (some might say severe) terrain, with plenty of awkward sidehill/uphill/downhill lies and reverse-cambered dogleg fairways. Finding yourself with a downhill lie hitting to an uphill green is not uncommon. So is finding yourself wanting to hit a fade off a hook lie or vice-versa.   

[Phil McDade]

The best seniors seem perplexed by the tilt of the greens at the Broadmoor, and the counter-intuitive reads they produced, in relation to the nearby mountains.

[jeffwarne]

Sleepy Hollow
ANGC-the original designers knew this
Goat Hill
Augusta CC-to the point where I had to confess to someone the other day that I probably wasn't very good at teaching the effect of sidehill lies-I just "did it"
Many/most links courses-especially those with fairway smaller undulations affecting trajectory (Portsalon)

[Peter Pallotta]

I can't even imagine what Crystal Downs would play like if those wonderful greens were over and over 'at grade' (ie on the same level/elevation as the tee or approach shots) instead of almost always above or below you (ie from the tee and/or approach). Oh, to be a really good player playing that course and having the ability to choose various angles and to hit various trajectories -- what a joy that must be.
P

[mike_malone]

The name Rolling Green may give you a clue. But it isn’t the up and down that makes the land the hazard it’s the side hill that is Flynn’s genius.

[JESII]

Mike, with the exception of #14 at Rolling Green, which hole(s) do you think exemplify this idea of the terrain causing the primary difficulties of the hole?


I see it on almost every hole at Huntingdon Valley, another Philly Flynn great course...but not as much at RG.


I think it’s because he took on the hills head on at RG (and Manufacturer’s for that matter) and ride along them at HV so the slope acts like a constant cross wind all the way around.

[Thomas Dai]

'When the terrain is a hazard'..........when the grass is short and the ground is firm.
atb

[mike_malone]

1 twists to the right. 2 slopes away from the target. 3 kicks left. 9 runs at an angle for a hundred yards. 13 slopes right and kicks you out of the fairway. 17  doglegs left as it rises. 18 slopes left on a right dogleg. I forgot 7 at the green once the right bunker is gone.


 I find the HVCC slopes to be mostly right to left. Both are examples of Flynn genius versus other famous designers tendency to go up and down the hill.

[Jim Nugent]

ANGC-the original designers knew this

Mackenzie even wrote that was why he built so few traps there.  The land and streams served as natural hazards. 

[Cliff Hamm]

The only problem I have with ANGC is that the water is indeed a hazard, and the course would not be nearly the same without it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Olympic Lake and Mid Ocean come to mind as courses where the cross slope means you aim at the high end of the fairway. 


Not mentioned so far are flatter fairways, with small areas of cross or wobbled slopes you need to avoid.  Doak did this well with at (I think, from memory) no. 6 at Stone Eagle.  Dog leg right, trap right, wide fw, but the right third of it will carry you into the sand.  Classic collection bunker.


Many architects have thought in terms of "grinding out" one level area in a fw as the prime target, and letting the rest have more roll and thus a more difficult lie.  S

ome holes have the entire fw warped. 

[/size][/color]

Tripp Davis did this here in DFW. Maybe he was going for a particular shot challenge of wedge off a sloped lie, which he achieved.

Also always liked the hole at Pasatiempo where and old ditch seemed to be smoothed a bit, but left as fairway, angling across to left.   


There are others, I am sure.  That kind of design has fallen out of favor in modern times.  I always blamed that in large part on JN, and other pros, who seemed to think of the aerial game and targets where the ball would stop, rarely considering run out.

[Tom_Doak]

[size=78%]That kind of design has fallen out of favor in modern times.  I always blamed that in large part on JN, and other pros, who seemed to think of the aerial game and targets where the ball would stop, rarely considering run out.[/size]

I always blamed the 75% of designers who think they have to move dirt and level out landing areas, instead of leaving the natural contours and trying to design with them in mind.

[Thomas Dai]

And flat lies/stances are pretty boring in comparison to (naturally) sloped, mogul, semi-mogul or mini-mogul type lies/stances, even if they're only slightly uneven. Terrain that is varied in terms of lies/stance and ball-bouncing is much more interesting and challenging (even if occasionally annoying!). The two courses at Ballyliffin being examples of the difference.
atb

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