[John_Conley]

Has anyone seen the 2nd course for Hammock Dunes?  It opened in January.  I've not heard anything about it.

[Matt_Ward]

I too share John's interest because I will be returning to Ocean Hammock sometime in early October and want to know if it's worth a look.

[Mitch Hantman]

I went up there to play it last month.  It is a good course, with many forced carries.  The property is beautiful, but the environmentalists handcuffed Rees a great deal, and several of the carries over the marsh are unrealistic, particularly on the back side.  One short par 4 of about 370 yards had a carry from the back tees of about 245 yards.  Matt,  I'm guessing that you are one of the very few that can carry that far in the air.  

[Rob_Waldron]

I played the Creek Course in January. What a magnificent setting! The course is routed through mature forest and marshy wetlands. There are several extremely long forced carries as mentioned earlier. When playing into the wind the carry is virtually impossible. The worst part is that there is no bailout available. You have to hope that whoever is setting the tee markers recognizes the wind direction. Other than the forced carries the course is wonderful! It has been deemed too difficult by many of the higher higher handicap men and most of the women.   Therefore they tend to play the Fazio course. This leaves the Creek course very uncrowded and rather enjoyable!

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Cant add a whole lot to what was said here other than I was lucky enough with a killed drive to just carry the forced carries, however a slightly older friend of mine who played with some members a few weeks before remarked that there was no way that he could carry that to the fairway.  To which the members added dont worry none of us can either we just go across to the landing area and start laying 3.  It saves the inevatible ball loss.

I too thought the setting was spectacular and the routing was good other than where they were handcuffed like that on the back.

D.

ps you are right there was no one out there the day I was there.

[John_Conley]

What a place!  W O W ! !.

I played the 7000 yard set of tees and couldn't (or at least didn't on this day I drove it particularly poorly) carry to a lot of the fairways on the back.  What am I talking about?  (for those who haven't seen the place)  Here are the yardages on holes 15-17:  316, 118, and 297 versus 362, 216, and 421.    

It is absolutely beautiful at times, particularly on holes 10, 11, and 13.  A difficult site with all the wetlands and flat topography, so it isn't much of a surprise that the place is almost non-golfable if you play the wrong tees.  I'd go from 6500 if I played again.  I can't imagine how well you'd need to drive it from 7350 on the blacks.  

For a comparison, this is like a tougher version of the originals holes at Bonita Bay - formerly a Top 100 in Digest.  Those holes now make up 9 of the Marsh and 9 on Bay Island.

Ocean Hammock is a veritable walk in the park compared to Hammock Dunes' Creek Course.

[Matt_Ward]

John --

I plan on being in the area sometime in early October and I'm looking forward to playing Ocean Hammock again. Is the Creek Course F-A-I-R from the tips.

I remember playing the old Bonita Bay course in its original version and I found it be too demanding for anyone more than a five handicap on a number of the longer holes. Is this the steroid version of that type of course?

I enjoy demanding tests but is fairness a part of the equation or are we talking about a beast that's set up more for 19th hole discussions than real day-to-day golf.

Your comments are most welcomed and appreciated.

[Rob_Waldron]

Matt

There were only two holes with forced carries that could be considered too difficult. They may have been #13 and #15 but I am not certain. They are probably fine downwind and nearly impossible into the wind.

The setting of the course is truly special! It is a wonderful compliment to the Fazio Course.

[John_Conley]

Matt:

The problem with courses like this is that everyone tends to look at it from their frame of reference.  If I drove it better, the 7000 yard Gold tees is all of a sudden no problem.  Ask a Tour player and they might call the 7350 yard Blacks short.  

I'm a guy who medaled in a qualifier for the Minnesota Am 12 years ago, made 6 birdies and an eagle in one round on a U.S. Open course, and fancies himself as a decent (definitely not good) player.  For me, the Golds are WAY TOO MUCH if I'm playing like I did yesterday.  It doesn't matter what the yardage is if you play from the drop zone on five of the back 9 holes.  (You can pull or push the ball out of play even if you have enough to carry the 200 yards these call for.  One is a carry of 235, more from the tips.)

Lou Graham, 1975 United States freaking Open champion, said the way to play one of the holes at Bonita is to hook your ball into the red left, drop, beat it up around the green, and hope to make bogey.  (Formerly #18 on the initial course.)  "At least that way you don't have to play your second from behind the pond! (if you didn't carry any land)"  This guy is a winner of the world's biggest golf tournament and he says that?  At Hammock Dunes you get to go to the other side of the hazard and play a drop, but the carries are even harder than the ones at Bonita because you don't have a bailout route where you can shorten the journey.  (Think #2 and #13 at Bonita Bay and all are like that.)

Interested in hearing what you have to say.  I'll go up a set to 6500 (nearly 300 yards of the 500 difference comes 15-17 when the wetlands are at their thickest) if I ever play there again.

For a strong driver of the ball, I'm sure the back tee is playable.

What's fair, anyway?

[Matt_Ward]

John:

Thanks for the update.

Clearly, how one is playing has as much to do with what takes place as does how far back the tees go when playing.

The only way I would say something is unfair is that the opportunityu for success is truly not attainable except for the interdiction of luck. If that is the calling car for any course I'll simply skip it.

Noentheless, the reports I have heard from GCA and others who have sent me info offline indicates it's a solid test of golf and one I'm looking forward to play in mid-October and make up my own mind.

One last question -- what is the better overall course -- Ocean Hammock or Creek Course at Hammock Dunes?

Does anyone have any slope / cr info from the different tee boxes?

Thanks ...

[John_Conley]

Matt:

OH................CC@HD

7201...............7355
77.0/147.......76.7/149

6723...............6990
74.8/142.......74.5/145[/b]

6371...............6488
73.2/135.........72.0/139

Somehow much of my post has been lost.  Anyway, these numbers are misleading in that the Creek Course is a thousand times harder.  All you need to do at OH is drive it far and you are greeted with extremely wide fairways.  You could R.O.B. at Creek, even if you are a good player.

What is a better golf course?  Ocean Hammock, hands down.  In order for something to be great in my eyes it needs to be playable for all golfers.  The 90 yard par 3s (all four of them) for the red tees at Creek show you that the holes are a little contrived because the site did not lend itself to more golfable holes.  Toss in the ocean, a rarity to have a setting that awesome, and you just can't find many courses in Florida to compare with Ocean Hammock.

For the one-timer (like myself... I'd love to go back and doubt I'll ever have the chance) or exremely skilled player (think U.S. Am level or better), the Creek Course is an absolute joy - but perhaps in a novelty way; it isn't likely to be a score that makes your handicap counters unless you play up from the Gold tee.  It might be a lot easier from 6500; I just know it was very hard from the ones back from there on a breezy day when I wasn't driving it well.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

Thanks for the update.

Have you played The Ocean Course at Kiawah and do you see the Creek Course being it's match for sheer demands?

John, from what I read you're saying the Creek Course is really not a bonafide "great" golf course because it has no place for the average player. Is that fair to say? That's why I mentioned the word "fair" because courses that are "fair" usually include some optional way for that level of player to get around the course. Even when playing from shorter tees it seems to be no less demanding because of the jungle / high grass / whatever that lines many of the holes.

I'm psyched to see it in October. Thanks for the heads-up.

P.S. I can only hope that more people do play Ocean Hammock -- how it gets lost when the subject of course ratings comes up simply astounds me given the site the course has.

[John_Conley]

Matt:

I think you captured my thoughts exactly.  It is a very pretty course in a different way than Ocean Hammock.  The lowcountry-style wetlands and flatland through forest are special in their own, decidedly non-ocean way.  I loved it, but can't call it "great" when a hack couldn't finish half the holes.  It should be noted that it is a second course for a private club in need of something different than their other course.  It's right on the mark in that regard, although I haven't seen the Links Course at Hammock Dunes.

Have not played Kiawah.

Look me up if you hit O-town in October.

JOHN

[Matt_Ward]

John --

Send me your contact info offline and I'll be sure to contact you when I arrive in the Sunshine State. Maybe we can play together at either course if time permits. I'll be staying with my wife at The Lodge at Ocean Hammock.

P.S. I'll be reaching out to Rees Jones to gather any additional info on the Creek Course as well.

[John_Conley]

Matt:

Lodge is 20 rooms above the pro shop and appears to be quite nice.  Rooms might not be large, however.  They've come a long way in the last three years!  It was just a golf course and portable the first time I saw it.

Tell Rees I loved it and think their design work was great.  He got a golf course on the tough site and showcased a few of the prettiest spots.  I've played Ocean Forest, the Oconee Club, Fiddler's Elbow, and some others of is and thought this might have been the prettiest.  It in some ways resembles Burnt Pine.

[Matt_Ward]

Can anyone help me understand how this area of Florida is doing so well in terms of golf course offerings. It seems like it was a giant secret for toooooooo long.

It still boggles my mind that Ocean Hammock is not noticed by those who should know! Now you have the Creek Course!

[John_Conley]

Matt:

Florida's average golf course blows away the average course in many other areas of the country, mainly because they are all newer and probably had larger budgets.  We have very few of the mom-and-pops.

The top end of Florida may pale compared to Long Island, Ireland, Scotland, or the Australian sand belt, but through sheer volume some wind up being pretty darn good.   I call this the Prince Effect or Madonna Effect.  Even if you aren't a Prince or Madonna fan, you invariably will like some of their music a lot just because their body of work is so large.

Just off the top of my head... Victoria Hills, Mystic Dunes, Ocean Hammock, Camp Creek, Shark's Tooth, and this new Rees offering are very good courses opened in the last 3 years.

[Matt_Ward]

As an FYI I had the pleasure in playing the new Rees Jones layout in Palm Coast. Here's the skinny ...

7,355 yards from the tips
76.7 slope
149 slope

The issue of forced carries needs to be addressed right up front. Clearly, there are several you face when playing the course and they are indeed intimidating holes to the max.

The long par-3 7th plays 230 yards and is handicapped #5 for a reason. The green is well protected by wetlands that pinch in from both the left and right. You have to carry no less than 210 yards to avoid the wetlands that stand between the tee and the green. There is v-e-r-y v-e-r-y little bailout room from the tips. If you play a more forward tee position the angle becomes abit easier but the wetlands still pinch in.

The back nine is where the forced carries really take hold. The par-4 13th calls for carry of about 220 yards to reach the fairway. That's a piece of cake compared to rem,ainign holes.

The par-5 14th at 588 yards is one of the best par-5's that Rees Jones has designed. Here you have a fairly open fairway but it narrows considerably the closer you come to the green. There are wetlands that pinch inthe fairway the further down you go. If you really bust a drive you might take the short-cut across the wetlands and aim for the green. Given the fact that the hole plays into the prevailing wind and that you're dealing with soft bermuda fairways I'd have to say that only the super super long would have such an option.

The par-4 15th may be one of the most intimidating tee shots you can play in the Sunshine State. The hole only plays 475 yards but the carry is 247 yards from the tips. You also have little in terms of sight line to guide your execution at the tee. The slightest pull is deader than Elvis and you have little room to push your tee ball. When the wind hits your face you need to hit a solid tee ball or it's a donation. I know many people will not like such an all-or-nothing hole but I didn't think it was unafir when the golfer chooses the proper tee. The low handicap and strong players can make the carry but you just KNOW you must hit it solid to do so.

The 16th -- a par-3 of 230 yards is also demanding. How they list the hole as the #18 handicap is beyond me. Again, you have another forced carry but the demands you ofund at #7 are not the same here. The green is the issue here and you must be near the pin to avoid a three-jack.

The 17th -- at 436 yards is sheer terror from the tips. The fairway is the width of an Irish road and any push / pull will meet a swift fate of no return.

I'll have more to post as I'm on the road back from Florida now.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

As opposed to salivating based on your description, I'm sitting here with "dry mouth".

Who is the course built for?  

Given the number of forced, all or nothing carries from the tee that you described, as well as the general "tightness" of the holes that seems rather penal, is this a site that should have a golf course sitting on it?

[John_Conley]

Mike C.:

Good question.  It should be noted that this is a "second" course for the members of Hammock Dunes.  Off-site and much different than the initial.

Peg it from 6000 and a lot of these carries aren't as much of an issue.  Perhaps I can rephrase your question.  "Who are the back tees for!"  Tour pros, college players, and elite amateurs - and not many else.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike Cirba:

There's little doubt that a round at The Creek Course at Hammock Dunes can be comparable to that on a wild rollarcoaster!

You have benign holes in a number of spots but the ones that grab you by the throat can do so in a manner similar to that of Jason in one of the slash and burn movies! Unless you have total control of the golf ball in those situations the likelihood for a high score seems to be inevitable.

I agree completely with John regarding the back tees on about six of the holes at the course. I have to say the tee shot across the 15th is a bit "unnerving" and I have played my share of such holes. You simply don't have any visual component to set yourself for and it simply becomes amtter of solid contact with the ball and trust of your swing.

If the wind blows hard off the Intracoastal then the layout simply intensifies in a major way. I also agree with John that if you move up one tee box the "demands" and "rigor" becomes a bit less intense -- but they are still present and can't be forgotten for even a millisecond.

Mike -- you pose a good question about the aspect of a course being situated on such a site. Just keep in mind there are more than a few holes that are quite good and that don't require anywhere near the type of carries involved. Why they routed the holes in such a fashion is only something the folks at the facility know. I will say that the par-3 7th and 16th holes are quite taxing -- I busted a 3-iron into both and was fortunate that my play at the 7th hole didn't reach the wetlands on the right.

The real two demanding holes on the back -- the 15th and 17th -- are simply tee shot intimidation type holes. You simply have to quiet the nerves and go from there.

I am not a big fan of this all-or-nothing type golf. However, I have to wonder if the folks at the facility really understand the nature of such type holes and what they do to the person who plays the ocurse on a daily basis.

I will say this though -- if you can handle The Creek and the Nicklaus Course at Ocean Hammock -- which is completely fair and demanding in a number of spots (in my mind it's one of the top five public courses in the Sunshine State and a really superb Golden Bear design) -- then you can certainly play golf at a high level. Like John said -- there aren't many who fit the description.

[John_Conley]

Wardo:

Sounds like we saw the same thing at the Creek.  Here's an acid-test:

Got a call from their head pro, who must have been jogged to call yesterday on the heels of your visit.  He wondered what I thought of the course and I found myself dying to play it again!  So pretty at times, tranquil grounds, immaculate conditions, radical golf - it was FUN!  In a different kind of way than other courses.

I told Ron that it was like recommending a movie you liked but weren't sure others would.  Kind of dangerous setting someone up to like it if the movie runs the risk of giving them the other vibe.

Next time you are in that area, check out Grand Haven.  It is a very good Nicklaus daily-fee without the ocean.  A lot like Ocean Hammock.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

Thanks for the heads-up on Grand Haven. I heard similar things from a few others as well. Next time I'm in the neighborhood I'll be sure to try it.

Regarding The Creek Course I didn't find it to be totally unfair but one must play from the appropriate tees in order to get any real fun from playing it. If you take someone to the practice range before playing they must show they can hit the ball solidly and relatively straight before they venture to the course -- especially the holes with the forces carries and the ones with trouble lurking on both sides. The thing to keep in mind is that the demand are really tee shot demands -- the green complexes are fairly straightforward and only a few (the 16th being one) is quite taxing if you land in the wrong spot.

I'd have to say that the finishing holes on both sides is quite similar and that was a disappointment. Both the 9th and 18th are fairly similar in what they expect. I also have an issue with the manner by which the holes on the back nine go on a straight run (the 13th through 17th) follow the same route and as a result the wind pattern here stays fairly the same.

I have to say that Rees did a superb job with the par-5 14th -- it's one of the finest three-shot holes one can play. There is the option in going for the green but that route is only for those with a 300+ blast from the tee.

The Creek will certainly not be the cup of tea layout that many traditionalists will enjoy. And, I'm equally sure that those who are anti-Rees will simply see the course as being just another disappointment. My final verdict on The Creek is that it requires a real sense of what you can handle on a golf course. To borrow Clint Eastwood's line -- "a man has got to know his limitations." If you keep that in mind when playing The Creek you'll be sure to get something out of your time there. On the Doak scale I would give the course no more than a 5 because the ying and yang type holes you face really does not provide a coherent flow for what an 18-hole experience should be IMHO.

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