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BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0

I am sorry, but you are part of "the system" that got us to this place of tearing apart historic club courses (Merion and Shinnecock for me).


Good god, get over yourself.

Greg Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Did anybody see the question posed to tour pros on espn.com yesterday?

Q:  "What would it take to keep you from going to the Masters?"

The answers were anonymous.  Out of maybe 20 guys responding, several DID say the enforcement of a Masters ball would incite them to skip, or at least think about it.
O fools!  who drudge from morn til night
And dream your way of life is wise,
Come hither!  prove a happier plight,
The golfer lives in Paradise!                      

John Somerville, The Ballade of the Links at Rye (1898)

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Did anybody see the question posed to tour pros on espn.com yesterday?

Q:  "What would it take to keep you from going to the Masters?"

The answers were anonymous.  Out of maybe 20 guys responding, several DID say the enforcement of a Masters ball would incite them to skip, or at least think about it.
I saw this after I posted my last post. The URL, for others: http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/22992057/masters-2018-keep-golfer-playing-augusta
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Erik you said


Quote
The shared equipment in golf IS uniform - the course, the hole locations, etc. - at least as much as it can be

I don't think it helps here to claim the golf course is "equipment", seems a bit of an absurd stretch.  Is a baseball field, a track, or a swimming pool also "equipment" or the field of play?

f anything, your last post also shows that rules to any game are arbitrary.  There is nothing sacred or otherwise that a player be entitled to use his/her own ball. If anything, if we look for a precedent in other sports, having a uniform ball for all players is the rule, while each using their own a rare exception

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
A uniform ball would lead to one uniform swing optimized to that ball. Why in the hell would you want that? It's not quite the old days but we still have a bunch of different swing types on tour. Hell, Furyk holds the scoring record and Bubba can play a bit.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
A uniform ball would lead to one uniform swing optimized to that ball. Why in the hell would you want that? It's not quite the old days but we still have a bunch of different swing types on tour. Hell, Furyk holds the scoring record and Bubba can play a bit.


John,


You couldn't be more correct here.


Just like every hitter has the same swing in baseball and every pitcher throws it the same.
Just like every receiver in football catches the ball the same way and every QB throws it the same way
Just like every basketball player shoots it and passes the same way.


« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 04:15:34 PM by Kalen Braley »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Erik - if the Masters offered players a ball that went 15% further and straighter and stopped every bit as well as today’s ProV, would your guys take a month off to figure out how far their 7 iron goes?

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0


The problem Erik has in his point is when making his initial post he started off using generalities from unnamed sources without qualifying them and presents them as cast iron facts that affect all players which is a very poor way to argue. When questioned on this post he admits to basically exaggerating and stretching the truth but in later posts returns to the same methods.


I think that's a pretty poor mischaracterization. At about this time in 2017 I know of a player who was still using a 2011 model golf ball. He played it throughout the year, based on talks with his coach last year. I can't speak to that now as it's 2018 and he may have switched in the off season. That's what the "I forgot it was 2018" comment meant. What I said was accurate as late as October, 2017.


and yet in an earlier post you said quote

'[font=]Saying 2011 may have been a stretch (I keep forgetting that it's 2018…), but I know of a player who used a 2013 model Titleist ball at the Memorial last year.[/font]

[font=]Lets not forget that the Memorial last year was 2017. You keep on changing your story so it is impossible to know what is reliable and what is not. [/font]




I do not suggest that you deliberately change your story but it is clear that you do change it depending on what you are trying to get across. Unfortunately this leaves the reader wondering which version is correct. You make the assertion that a player was using a 2011 ball in 2017 then retract it saying 'it may have been a stretch' only to reiterate practically the same story about a player using a 2011 ball in 2017.


Mischaracterisation?  I don't believe so but I will let others decide for themselves. As for the rest of your post I just cannot be bothered to address the points raised.


Jon

Peter Pallotta

Head of the PGA Pete Bevacqua was quick to speak on behalf of his membership and to oppose any kind of roll-back/bifurcation or further technological restrictions -- I assume, at least in part, because of the frightening vision of 20 millions angry golfers staring dumb-founded at their 30,000 teaching pros as their supposedly hard-earned distance gains evaporated overnight. More interesting to me was a recent Undercover Tour Pro (and major champion), who offered a nuanced analysis of the debate and (similarly) concluded that there shouldn't be any roll-back or bifurcation.  But unlike Mr. Bevaqua, he at least seemed attuned to -- and concerned about -- the impact of technology on golf course architecture: 

"Courses are golf’s most valuable asset. Because they’re shown on TV, the courses we play have an undue amount of influence on other courses. Every time we add tee boxes, pinch fairways, grow rough so high that balls can barely be found, tuck pins two paces from the green’s edge — all in the name of getting us to shoot the same scores as Bobby Jones, Ben Hogan and Jack Nicklaus — the original intent of a golf course is distorted. What they’re doing to Shinnecock Hills this summer for the U.S. Open is grotesque. Ultimately, we showcase a sport that doesn’t look like much fun."

Again, his position is against any kind of roll-back; and so he follows up on his previous point about golf courses (to many of us, an obvious fact) with this:

"All we have to do is protect golf’s most valuable asset — its courses — and the rest will fall into place. How do we do that? I say let’s abolish par. Remember, scoring in relation to par was introduced at the Masters in 1960. Yes, it made the various standings of an array of players scattered around a golf course comprehensible, and it was a boon for TV broadcasting. But what has it wrought? Par is an arbitrary number that skews our perception of what’s a good golf course. Par at Oakmont often feels like 76, but if that’s what it was on the scorecard, the winner would shoot 20 under and the world would say it’s a crap course. The most interesting holes on the PGA Tour — and in golf generally — are the ones where par is most nakedly irrelevant anyway. The 10th at Riviera, the 18th at Torrey Pines South, the 15th at TPC River Highlands — the list goes on and on. Golf’s most exciting format, match play, also sheds par as a concept of any importance. We could play the Masters from the member tees and it would be a heck of an exciting golf tournament. Because Augusta National is a great course. Yes, we’d have a lot more wedges in—but so what? Pros are good. Seen with the right eyes, there’s more potential for nuance and shotmaking with the wedge than any other club in the bag. I know this sounds radical, but it’s actually a simple idea. Lowest score wins."
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 05:19:13 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Cal Seifert

  • Karma: +0/-0
What would the scoreboard look like on a Sunday afternoon at the Masters if there was no par? We would need some way of measuring players against the field.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
There’s no need to lose par...we/they just need to stop worrying how low these guys shoot in relation to it.


Buy more double digit red numbers for the scoreboard...

Peter Pallotta

Cal - I'm far from an expert, but I'd guess it would just be the same as it was for the decades before they changed it: i.e. coming down the stretch at the Masters, Phil would be at 264, Tiger at 265, and Bubba at 267. We'd all adjust, literally, overnight.

More generally, it does bother me that those who are tasked with protecting and 'growing' the game (and who presumably love it) can be so cavalier about one of golf's most important assets, i.e. gca. Just like those power-brokers who colourized "It's a Wonderful Life", and who thereby utterly dismissed not only Capra's creative *choice* (i.e. he could have made it in colour, like "Gone with the Wind', but purposely didn't) but also the immense talent and proven artistic instincts of one of America's true master craftsman. And almost every year, come US Open time, the USGA does the same thing. Take a look at the interesting and beautiful and nuanced challenge that was Merion in the early 1960s, and then look at it after a US Open -- an ugly one dimensional slog that I can barely tell apart from a dozen other ugly, one dimensional slogs. Capra brought years of study and expertise to playing with light and shadows and ranges of greys in order to create a glorious B&W picture -- but someone with money and power (just as with Merion and Shinnecock etc etc) simply thought they knew better. Well, they don't.  (Does it take a tour pro to tell/convince us of that?) Leave architecture to the *architects* -- they're the ones who both know and care; administrative types should stick with what *they* know best, ie administration. 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 05:20:37 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't think it helps here to claim the golf course is "equipment", seems a bit of an absurd stretch.  Is a baseball field, a track, or a swimming pool also "equipment" or the field of play?
The point is clearly that the things that are "shared" are uniform and supplied by one party (the "Committee") or whatever, while in EVERY sport items that are "personal" and not "shared" is allowed, within some guidelines/rules, to be slightly different than what another player is using for that specific item.

In golf, the ball is not "shared equipment" like it is in most other ball sports (bowling, obviously, being on golf's side).

If anything, your last post also shows that rules to any game are arbitrary.
Of course they are.

There is nothing sacred or otherwise that a player be entitled to use his/her own ball. If anything, if we look for a precedent in other sports, having a uniform ball for all players is the rule, while each using their own a rare exception
???

So you just skipped over the whole "personal equipment" and "shared equipment" thing? The better interpretation, IMO, is that in every other sport, "personal equipment" is allowed to be slightly different and not completely uniform. Only "shared equipment" is uniform.

Jim, when you ask a serious question, I'll answer it.

Jon, I've used two different players as examples here. I know specifically of a player using a 2013 ball at the 2017 Memorial, and a player using a 2011 ball throughout the 2017 season. When I said "tell that to the guy who is still using a 2011 Pro V1x" or whatever, I was referring to the latter guy, who may not still be using it as that statement implies in 2018.

Ultimately… believe what you want. I have my experiences and they inform my opinions that guys wouldn't just readily jump to a new ball without much trouble or time, and beyond that it informs my opinion that a uniform ball would be "fair" and would affect everyone exactly the same.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Peter Pallotta

Erik - just fyi: Jim would never mention it himself, but he is a heck of a golfer -- winner of significant amateur championships and with experience on various pro tours, including if I'm not mistaken at least a few PGA tour events. And while his writing style is sometimes pithy and always brief, I found over the years that his questions are always sound, and worth thinking about/worth answering.
P

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Forget Peter’s post for a second Erik, and just consider my question as a serious one...


Remember, I agree with you that a roll back for the sake of protecting courses from the Tour guys is unnecessary...


My disagreement is that these guys would have to take a long time to play tournaments if the rules changed overnight.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Erik,


As another data point, I think its also interesting to note that top level players do this every year in the Ryder and Presidents Cup in 2 ball matches....and still seem to be able to hit plenty of quality shots. I'm not aware of any "ball whining" during these, but I guess it could be happening...




Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0

I am sorry, but you are part of "the system" that got us to this place of tearing apart historic club courses (Merion and Shinnecock for me).


Good god, get over yourself.


But I am having so much fun :) I think I will continue!!


Sully,


Some would have problems with the change. As much as I would like to play the 1935 or so Augusta, reality is the Masters has done a great job of adjusting over the years. Thus, my original premise that they could/should/will make changes (ball and other) still stands. It is more than just a "Masters Ball".


Erik,


Through the "miracle of marriage", I own 49% of a "Qualitative Research" firm (you can google it), and I KNOW that what people say online is WAY WAY different that what they do in reality/in-person.


For example: Donald Trump IS the President of the United States.


« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 07:24:47 PM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0



Jon, I've used two different players as examples here. I know specifically of a player using a 2013 ball at the 2017 Memorial, and a player using a 2011 ball throughout the 2017 season. When I said "tell that to the guy who is still using a 2011 Pro V1x" or whatever, I was referring to the latter guy, who may not still be using it as that statement implies in 2018.

Ultimately… believe what you want. I have my experiences and they inform my opinions that guys wouldn't just readily jump to a new ball without much trouble or time, and beyond that it informs my opinion that a uniform ball would be "fair" and would affect everyone exactly the same.


Erik,


you made a statement, retracted it and then reiterated practically the same statement. Whether it was about one player or two is academic. You believe what you will it does not alter what you wrote on this thread.


In the end I think we both agree about a 'one ball' being both the fairest way forward but probably unlikely to happen.


As an aside, you have made most on here aware of you connection to the tour and some (unnamed) players on it. That is great, impressive and obviously gives your opinion some weight. However, please do not forget that others on the board have also done impressive things with their lives though many chose to boast openly about it. If you show respect you will also receive it.


Jon

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jon, I don't feel you've read the player examples correctly, but I'm not going to waste more time on it, except to say again that my experiences illustrate that I think there are plenty of players who don't even want to take the time to adjust to a mildly improved/changed new golf ball in the same line, let alone a completely different golf ball.

And I put almost no importance, personally, on the time I've spent on the Tour, with the players, etc. Thousands and thousands of people can say the same; it's not something I see as important. If others do, my mistake is in assuming others feel it's as unimportant as I do. Others have done more impressive things here for sure; heck, I've done many things more impressive (IMO) than the Tour work/people I know.

But the biggest statement… and the one that's most relevant… In the end, I completely disagree that "one ball" is the fairest. The golf ball is "personal equipment." I don't know how you could have misread what I've ever posted here to think I'd agree with that statement. No, we don't agree on that.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0

Oh Erik,


you really are a blast.


 ::)

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Oh Erik,

you really are a blast.
Thanks!  :-*

In the end I think we both agree about a 'one ball' being both the fairest way forward but probably unlikely to happen.
I'm still not sure what prompted you to post that.

But hey, whatever man. The Masters is on. :)
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

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