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Peter Pallotta

For the professionals (designers, shapers, supers) etc:

Which aspect of your art&craft have you found to go most unrecognized/unappreciated by even gca aficionados, but which you believe plays a key role in the overall success of/appreciation for your golf courses?

Or to put it another way: is there an approach/technique to any aspect of the design, building and maintenance of quality golf courses that you've rarely been asked about and/or that you've rarely mentioned, i.e. that has remained 'hidden'?

Peter
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 09:32:37 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Is there anything *hidden* in the art-craft of golf course architecture
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2017, 11:52:24 PM »
I've mentioned most of the details we focus on in our work at some point or another.  If I'd been holding some secret back for 17 years, you wouldn't get me to spill it now ;)


I still think the least understood aspect of design is the routing process.  George Thomas described using little cardboard golf holes with pivot points for doglegs, and I know several architects who have done the same.  It is so much more complicated than that.  But it will take me a whole book to explain it - probably two books, in fact!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Is there anything *hidden* in the art-craft of golf course architecture
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2017, 06:05:28 AM »
This answer makes sense.


Few golfers would have any knowledge of the property before the holes were laid down, and certainly lack the intimate knowledge and awareness of architect(s) and staff.


I would imagine that some properties lend themselves more to a golf course than others. The predisposition of the land to do certain things (like drain) and the content of the soil (say, sand) would make routings more apparent at first blush, than on other plots, where these predispositions and contents are absent.


When you begin to figure in the human-owner element, the routing alters.


When golfers ask why a certain hole does not go a certain way, it isn't as easy as saying "4th Hole-Bethpage Black-Tilly was a genius to not take it down the valley to the left."
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Is there anything *hidden* in the art-craft of golf course architecture
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2017, 07:42:04 AM »

To me, the real problem of architecture is taking the grand concepts and making them really work.  At some point, you have to turn the idea of suggesting but not dictating a slight draw on a tee shot (as an example) into;


Where the hazard (often a tree) ought to be (usually 70% of drive distance, at apex of both height and curvature)


How steep should a green be to hold a shot, or be gently rolling, without being too steep (1.3% up slope, and in my mind 2.25% for greens 10 and under)


How big should the green be, given the approach shot, number of pin locations required, etc.


How wide is a wide fairway?


And of course, the infrastructure, such as


Establish "Good drainage" which requires some engineering of drain pipes, slopes etc.


Figuring out the balance of handy vs. hidden when laying out cart paths.


Short version, everything eventually has to get converted to a slope, dimension, etc., even if not a precise one where a quarter inch off can mean a very cold building in winter.  And, no one told me there would be math! :o :o
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: Is there anything *hidden* in the art-craft of golf course architecture
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2017, 09:49:46 AM »
Thanks, good posts.


Someone once told me that the word "art" comes from a German word that means "trick". I don't know if that is indeed true, but it certainly rings true.  Tennessee Williams once wrote (referring both to life and to the art of play-writing) something like: "Snatching the eternal from the ever fleeting is the great magic trick of human kind".  Golf course can make us feel happy and excited and thrilled and angry and frustrated and awed and at peace etc. I was asking in my OP what the "trick" was....


P

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Is there anything *hidden* in the art-craft of golf course architecture
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2017, 11:00:23 AM »
I think the biggest thing never mentioned is the ability to see something that isn't there.


Whether that is to draw something that you know will look good and fit the ground.... or to see something on site and then actually be able to build / execute it.

Dan Kelly

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Re: Is there anything *hidden* in the art-craft of golf course architecture
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2017, 01:38:45 PM »
Thanks, good posts.


Someone once told me that the word "art" comes from a German word that means "trick". I don't know if that is indeed true, but it certainly rings true.  Tennessee Williams once wrote (referring both to life and to the art of play-writing) something like: "Snatching the eternal from the ever fleeting is the great magic trick of human kind".  Golf course can make us feel happy and excited and thrilled and angry and frustrated and awed and at peace etc. I was asking in my OP what the "trick" was....


P


I would guess that this is the first time in world history that the relevance of Tennessee Williams to golf-course architecture has been recognized!


I'm not one of those you asked, but one "trick" (suggested by Mr. Williams's division of "eternal" and "ever fleeting") might be: Designing the course so that it "works" in all sorts of weather.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 01:56:37 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Is there anything *hidden* in the art-craft of golf course architecture
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2017, 02:46:36 PM »
I think the biggest thing never mentioned is the ability to see something that isn't there.



On the contrary, I think it's much rarer for architects to see what IS there in the ground and lay their holes out so as not to have to build too much.  Or, as I said earlier, routing!

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there anything *hidden* in the art-craft of golf course architecture
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2017, 03:46:44 PM »
I think the biggest thing never mentioned is the ability to see something that isn't there.



On the contrary, I think it's much rarer for architects to see what IS there in the ground and lay their holes out so as not to have to build too much.  Or, as I said earlier, routing!


That's not quite what I meant. What I'm referring to is the ability to visualise something and then create it. It's surprising how few can do this really well but it's a major part of making a final product look good. Routing is part of that creation so it swings both ways: Visualising an outcome from what isn't there and also visualising an outcome from what's there already. Either way it's about seeing a finished hole from a rough outline and then having the ability to realise the vision in the ground.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Is there anything *hidden* in the art-craft of golf course architecture
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2017, 04:52:42 PM »

Ally,


Agree on seeing what's not there. Every once in a while you do need to build a connector hole.  And when I have told people where the hole is going, they can't envision cutting 20 feet through a hill to the final product, or leveling a cross slope.


I recall walking the very rugged and ugly site of the Quarry, probably my most recognized course.  After having built in the pristine woods up the street, but trying to avoid environmental permits on the second course, someone suggested an old quarry site.  When I walked it, I casually said, yeah this could be great, to which several just couldn't see restoring such a scarred site. 


I tried to explain putting the green fairways amongst the sand, etc. would provide more visual contrast, but no one saw that in my little group.  Today, I would have probably had Tommy Nac whip up a before and after shot in photoshop to help.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there anything *hidden* in the art-craft of golf course architecture
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2017, 05:50:27 PM »
This is the second thread in 24 hours that uses an intriguing comparison to Literature.  At the risk of sounding like a "suck up" to the architects (which is about as far from my personality as imaginable), I believe that GCA is the more challenging art form for at least two reasons.  First, the GCA fundamentally has to provide his or her audience with the fact of performing a well-defined function--9 or 18 holes of using defined equipment to strike/chip/pitch/putt a round object from tee to green to hole.  Second, the GCA is constrained by the land with which he or she must work.  Yes, a playwrite has a stage as a constraint, and yes, a GCA can move earth, but a novelist has few limits regarding the "land" and a playwrite has numerous ways to expand or alter the function and presentation. 


I could also argue that readers of serious novels and theatergoers for serious drama expect to be challenged intellectually and emotionally whereas most golfers are looking for a distraction from the "fleeting" moments of life rather than having the GCA expose their raw emotions and/or challenge their worldview.


Bottom line:  I am not sure if there are any hidden dark arts in what a GCA does to produce the emotions that Peter articulates, but I am quite sure that it ain't easy.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Is there anything *hidden* in the art-craft of golf course architecture
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2017, 06:39:38 PM »

Not sure what it means, but I have compared architecture to comedy. ;D  And, some find my architecture funny......


In some ways humor and design are similar.   Substitution/placement/refinement of an existing idea or concept in a new surrounding is the basis of many designs.  For example, the old Steve Martin joke


"I blame myself for my girlfriends death (pause) I shot her."


He takes an ordinary situation and the substitutes a ridiculous idea that is clearly unexpected.  (He was good at that in stand up)


I believe the crux of creativity is avoiding straight line thinking, considering many options quickly, and seeing relationships between something you have seen before and the green site, fairway, etc. that lies before you. Substitution/placement/refinement of an existing idea or concept in a new surrounding is the basis of many designs.  And it can result in a totally new idea that makes people wonder how you came up with it.


And the reason most can't understand creativity is that they are straight line thinkers, as probably taught in most schools as a problem solving method. Just doesn't work in design.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: Is there anything *hidden* in the art-craft of golf course architecture
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2017, 06:48:39 PM »
These posts remind me that "talent" is a double-edged term: it *describes* pretty well, but it *explains* almost nothing at all.
Peter
 

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