[Chris_Blakely]

Knowing Ben went to OSU tells me everything 

Because we know u of m has to get all of their good players and coaches from Ohio right?😉

[BCowan]

alright the 2015 list has been updated for the final time.  It will be fun to compare the 2016 list to this one. 

2016 list requirements.  12 courses Played from 2015 list.  5 votes for course to be in top 10.  Have to have live in Michigan.  Can't be a rater!

There were no ranking requirements and people were not told how to think/rank.  Ribbing is always allowed 

[Ryan Taylor]

David,

Great response. I would go 2 Arcadia / 8 PH if I had to split 10 rounds.

PH has unbelievable potential. We're talking Doak 9 land. Alison did a great job routing the course through and around the ravine (watershed) that runs through the property. The elevation changes are very dramatic for an urban course in SE MI. PH is blessed with an outstanding set of Par 3's, fun and dramatic Par 5's and some really great Par 4's. I would argue that the fifth is one of the best par 3's in MI.  If PH had the resources, vision and care (OLCC super) the course would easily rival other Alison gems - MCC, OLCC, KCC, etc. Sure, the course needs strategic tree removal, a bunker renovation, re-working of 1,8 and 18, etc. If we're ranking courses solely on gca, PH is easily Top 10-12 in the state with an opportunity to be Top 5 with the right vision and $$. PH has hosted a PGA Championship and a Ryder Cup, let's hope the course survives and its' potential is someday realized!

[Mark Saltzman]

Ryan, I'd think a ranking would rank courses as they are presented today, not what they could be.

As an example, I visited Maxwell's Dornick Hills in Oklahoma.  By all accounts the golf course would be spectacular if restored but what is on the ground today is a long way from greatness (rock wall or not).  As someone interested in golf course architecture I was excited to see Dornick Hills and am glad I did... doesn't mean it's great today or that I'd be excited to go see it again in current form.  I feel the same way about Plum Hollow.  Soft (at least when I played it), overly narrow, over treed, awful mowing lines, shrunken greens and several very awkward holes.

[Ryan Taylor]

"I'd think a ranking would rank courses as they are presented today, not what they could be."

I gave PH a ranking for how it's presented today (11-12) and a hypothetical ranking (5) if some of the issues were addressed. I will admit that my present ranking is on the high side of our cumulative rankings and may be influenced by my love of the property / potential. I've played PH twice this year - before and after this year's Michigan Am. The course was very firm and fast. (However, their superintendent left mid-summer) I tried to look past simple conditioning issues as I developed my Top 25 otherwise I would've had Forest Dunes at 3 or 4!

"I'd love to see the arguments supporting Plum Hollow as a, say, top 50 course in Michigan."

While I agree with most of your criticisms and would love for it to be improved, I still find it very playable and enjoyable in its' present condition and stand by my Top 25 ranking.

[Ryan Taylor]

20. Lakewood Shores (Gailes) (5 votes)
21. Plum Hollow (6 votes)
22. Bloomfield Hills (5 votes)
23. Pilgrims Run (4 votes)
24. Point O Woods (4 votes)
25. The Mines (3 votes)

The Gailes and Mines ahead of Red Run GC?? I thought I saw at least three votes on the last email chain for RR. Where's the love for Bendelow/Willie Park Jr.

[BCowan]

20. Lakewood Shores (Gailes) (5 votes)
21. Plum Hollow (6 votes)
22. Bloomfield Hills (5 votes)
23. Pilgrims Run (4 votes)
24. Point O Woods (4 votes)
25. The Mines (3 votes)

The Gailes and Mines ahead of Red Run GC?? I thought I saw at least three votes on the last email chain for RR. Where's the love for Bendelow/Willie Park Jr.

Ryan,

 Gails had a 13 rating, The Mines was 13.66, and Red Run was 19.6.  I've heard good thing about the Gails.  The Mines vs Red Run would take some thought because I've played both only once.  Not enough votes for Flint.  Battle Creek is high up on the list....

[BCowan]

Ryan, I'd think a ranking would rank courses as they are presented today, not what they could be.

As an example, I visited Maxwell's Dornick Hills in Oklahoma.  By all accounts the golf course would be spectacular if restored but what is on the ground today is a long way from greatness (rock wall or not).  As someone interested in golf course architecture I was excited to see Dornick Hills and am glad I did... doesn't mean it's great today or that I'd be excited to go see it again in current form.  I feel the same way about Plum Hollow.  Soft (at least when I played it), overly narrow, over treed, awful mowing lines, shrunken greens and several very awkward holes.

Mark,

   Why don't you share with us which holes were awkward at Plum Hollow.  You have only played it once I assume and you say it's not top 50 in Michigan..   What have you played in Michigan other then Barton and Orchard?  Do you think Barton is firm day in and day out?  Barton isn't over treed?  Mowing lines- Are we a maint. GCA 3/5er?  Shrunken greens yes, that is one of many reasons why it isn't top 5 in Michigan.  As you mentioned in another post how superior you are in accessing golf Architecture.  Does a top hat that might be redone in the future qualify as being in same league as Plainfield?  Does a mower that hits the ridge on #12 qualify as Plainfield great?  Do irrigation ponds that are put next to a green in the 60's differ from shrunken greens at Plum Hollow?  You want us to grade a course as is, which Ryan and I have, but you overlook Architecture flaws at Barton?  I for the record will restate that Barton has a lot of potential, as does Plum.   

[Mike Schott]

Sorry to bump an older thread but I wanted to comment on Plum Hollow after playing it with Ben Cowan and Jon Adkins who hosted Ben and I. I live 3 miles due west of PH and am amazed at the contours of the land. I though the entire area around here was dead flat. Plum Hollow plays over a deep hollow and the western part of the course is in a deep swale. There are many wonderful holes, particularly some very nice shorter par 4's and a fine set of par 3's. One issue is most of the one shot holes are about the same length. The strength of the course is the green sites. They are well sited and some are perfectly benched into the existing terrain.


I like 18 a lot, mainly due to the green site, right below the terrace of the clubhouse and just past a creek.


 The course is far from perfect as a chainsaw would get a good workout and the lower lying holes on the back have drainage issues. Some of the greens are outstanding and others a bit blah.


To be fair, we played on a chilly morning following a rain and the greens had recently been aerated.


I don't see this course ever being a 9, but a 7 is quite possible with tree removal, capping of a few fairways and some work around the greens. The bunkers are not particularly artistic but that's relatively minor. I had a great time playing the course and want to thank Jon for hosting.

[BCowan]

2016 list requirements for voting.  10 courses Played from 2015 list.  Course must be played by 3 different voters to be eligible to be rated in top 25.  Must have played 5 courses in top 10 of 2015 list to be eligible to vote.  Have to live in Michigan.  We are using 100 point Doak scale this year.

For those GCAers who are not on the email chain and live in Michigan and are eligible to vote.  Send me a PM if you want to contribute.  Need everyone's list by Nov 15th at 7pm. 

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